Phat Lewt

[Aceldama]

I saw in the features section that you would be able to obtain customizable costume pieces that boosted your stats and powers. Does that mean CO will have equipment drops and equipment slots ala your average MMO?

If so, I'm all-for that idea.

Maybe it's just me, but the fact that you could never (until now) see ANY of your characters stats combined with the fact that you can't deck them out with gear (enhancements are yawn-worthy) made the game feel extremely shallow.

I'm down for "different", but if it isn't broken....

[Chivalry]

I would rather avoid equipment slots, I know for me, part of the fun from CoX was creating the character itself, to fit what I had wanted. If costume pieces can be edited with different stats I would be all for that, which I believe is the case with this game although there is a chance I misread it.

It will be nice to have a change at the very least. I suppose we will have to wait and see how it works out.

[Xiayose]

I find that the chance of getting loot drops from enemies, or quests, really adds a good amount of excitement for me. Given the genre I don't think there should be as prolific loot as in say WoW, but having it I definately consider a huge plus. (Especially since you can turn off the visuals to any piece you don't like the look of)

[Lionheart]

In a fantasy MMO, I like getting gear drops. In a superhero MMO, it's not the same for me. When I design my "supersuit", I pretty much know what I want my character to look like. Adding random armour pieces, etc., is not appealing to me.

But they said that we have the option to turn off the appearance; if so, all is good. :)

[Aceldama]

I don't want the kind of useless grey drops you get in WoW, but would it be impossible to put only items that could be used into the game? You bust up a robot and he drops some circuitry. Take the circuitry to a hero friend of yours who has some tech crafting skrillz and have him fashion you something fancy and stat-boosting for your suit.

Something to that effect.

You could even snatch complete pieces from fallen enemies.

It would make for a great in-game economy.

PLEASE let there be an economy. Interaction is key in a game that's massively multiplayer.

In CoX, you don't really need Wentworth's because it just expidites the items you could get at any time on your own if you work for it.

[chriz]

From what I understand, you will be able to get costume parts with stat-boosting properties, but you will be able to customize what those parts look like or hide them completely on your character, if you don't like how they detract from your appearance.

At least, this is what I hope we'll be able to do.

[Aceldama]

They pulled this off in LotRO.

No matter what equipment you're wearing, you can have it look the way you'd like it to.

In a game like this, I think that's paramount with the emphasis on being a unique hero.

[CaptainAtomyc]

That was something in LotRO I was thrilled with. When they announced that it was something that really gave me hope since I wasn't at all pleased with most of the armors. I don't play anymore, but im told its getting better.

Id like to see something akin to that here. I think loot and an economy could do well in a hero genre.

Cap

[blackulaa]

In some form to be a successful MMO we need a carrot. Character customization is also a must fopr a super hero game. Can't wait to see the solution for my ultimate hybrid. I'm drooling btw.

[Greblaja]

Stat-boosting equipment that changes the way you look? Please tell me you're kidding. Talk about Everquest in tights. If that's the way this game is going I'll just bail out now.

Stuff like this has no business being in a super hero game. I defy you to show me one example of this in the comic books, never mind demonstrating this as a trend that would justify having it in this in game. People, there's more than one way to make a fun MMO - let's keep an open mind and not keep defaulting to 'needing' all the features found in other games.

[blackulaa]

Green Lantern's ring? I tease.

I think they said they have an option to turn it off. Like I said before. You have the EQ crowd, and the Hero crowd. If you got a mechanic that fits both people's vision, I will be ecstatic.

[Hailstar]

The last thing this game needs is equipment and equipment slotting, aka WoW. The part of CoH that made it so fun was not having to worry about any of that. Just slot some enhancements and you're good to go. I would love to see a similar system in Champions, one that puts more focus on the detail and look customization than stats and power boosting.

[chriz]

Stat-boosting equipment that changes the way you look? Please tell me you're kidding. Talk about Everquest in tights. If that's the way this game is going I'll just bail out now.

A key component, though, is that if you don't like how it looks, you can disable its appearance on your toon. So it only changes how you look if you want it to.

If it's the idea of gear you equip in order to boost stats that you object to, just think of it as the same kind of thing as enhancements in CoX, or extra points to spend on improving your character a la the tabletop Champions game. It won't bother you so much if you're not forced to look at it all the time.

[Paradoxcontrol]

Stat-boosting equipment that changes the way you look? Please tell me you're kidding. Talk about Everquest in tights. If that's the way this game is going I'll just bail out now.

Stuff like this has no business being in a super hero game. I defy you to show me one example of this in the comic books, never mind demonstrating this as a trend that would justify having it in this in game. People, there's more than one way to make a fun MMO - let's keep an open mind and not keep defaulting to 'needing' all the features found in other games.

if you dont like the way it looks, change it, if you dont like it still, make it not show up at all. Its on the main page in the game info for god sake. They are not going to FORCE you to look like you dressed your hero in the dark.

[Aceldama]

Stat-boosting equipment that changes the way you look? Please tell me you're kidding. Talk about Everquest in tights. If that's the way this game is going I'll just bail out now.

Stuff like this has no business being in a super hero game. I defy you to show me one example of this in the comic books, never mind demonstrating this as a trend that would justify having it in this in game. People, there's more than one way to make a fun MMO - let's keep an open mind and not keep defaulting to 'needing' all the features found in other games.

I don't know, let's see:

Ironman's suit?

Batman's kryptonite ring that allows him to battle Superman when Maxwell Lord makes him his b*tch?

The armor Batman made to battle Predator in that crossover?

New Captain America's new bulletproof suit (and gun)?

Magneto's helmet?

Xavier's cerebro?

I could go on and on about the things heroes equip themselves with to boost effectiveness. It's all over comicbooks. And as everyone has stated, you'll be able to change the look of any stat-boosting armor you get.

[Greblaja]

You guys are totally missing my point - let me try to do a better job:

Did iron man loot that suit off of a thug in a back alley?

Did Cap get his shield from defeating Dr Doom?

Closer on point, did Superman get his cape by defeating a bunch of Brainiac bots, or did Batman get his boots by completing some mission for Commissioner Gordon? Of course not.

My take, what you want out of a game is to have fun playing it. Further, with a MMO, you want a chance to improve your character over time. That's the requirement. Tying those improvements to loot you can acquire and wear is a fairly good fit to the fantasy, dungeon romper genre: you find new stuff, it's better, use it. That's a good implementation for the fantasy genre, because you can find scores of examples of this in fantasy literature. But it's a horrible implementation for the super hero genre because it simply isn't found in the comics (save for some wild exception that someone is bound to point out here sooner or later).

To be honest, I'm somewhat insulted by this, that the devs think I'm such a simpleton that I need to have a stat-laden loot system to improve my characters because that's what WoW has so that's the only thing I'll accept. I don't understand why you guys are settling on this same old system for a super hero game when it seems clear as day to me that it fits that world as well as a left shoe on my right foot.

[chriz]

My take, what you want out of a game is to have fun playing it. Further, with a MMO, you want a chance to improve your character over time. That's the requirement. Tying those improvements to loot you can acquire and wear is a fairly good fit to the fantasy, dungeon romper genre: you find new stuff, it's better, use it. That's a good implementation for the fantasy genre, because you can find scores of examples of this in fantasy literature. But it's a horrible implementation for the super hero genre because it simply isn't found in the comics (save for some wild exception that someone is bound to point out here sooner or later).

But there are also a lot of other things that aren't found in comics. Does Superman gain EXP that he spends on new powers? Does he go up in levels? Do superheroes represent nearly 50% of a city's population?

How many superheroes get "missions" from "contacts?" Sure, Batman has Gordon, but beyond that?

To be honest, I'm somewhat insulted by this, that the devs think I'm such a simpleton that I need to have a stat-laden loot system to improve my characters because that's what WoW has so that's the only thing I'll accept. I don't understand why you guys are settling on this same old system for a super hero game when it seems clear as day to me that it fits that world as well as a left shoe on my right foot.

The challenge is to come up with a good game. If the strict logic of comic book superheroes gets in the way of gameplay, then that logic needs to bend.

[MOUT]

I really hope that the effect of any "drops" is minimal.

I haven't played every MMO out there, but I have played several. I have to say that my overall enjoyment of a game is hampered by "loot," not enhanced. I've seen too many arguments about who should get what drop, and insults because people don't have "good" equipment.

[Greblaja]

But, see, the experience metaphor is different. A player gets better at doing something, that's measured in experience. But how can you represent that? A numerical gain experience system is purely abstract, and it doesn't try to portray itself as something directly from 'reality', so its a bit more tolerable.

When it comes to improving stats theres a lot of ways you could go. I personally think the enhancement system of CoX is a better fit what they propose here. It, again, is a purely abstract system, so it provides a means to improve the core basics (damage, accuracy, etc) of your powers. Having the improvement system be a loot and wear system suggests a stronger analog to something you'd find in stories, but that activity simply doesn't happen in super hero stories.

I guess I'd rather have these game systems tied to something totally abstract than have them tied to something from reality that's totally bogus for the genre, if that makes any sense.

[Aceldama]

Closer on point, did Superman get his cape by defeating a bunch of Brainiac bots, or did Batman get his boots by completing some mission for Commissioner Gordon? Of course not.

No, Batman didn't get his boots from Gordon.

But if I'm not mistaken, a LOT of the items in the Batcave were lifted from defeated enemies.

I'm not saying they should do the loot and equipment system EXACTLY like all of the other me-too MMOs out there.

But anyone who has spent the last three+ years playing CoX can tell you how absolutely barren and shallow a game feels without any kind of economy, drops or visual stats.

[chriz]

But anyone who has spent the last three+ years playing CoX can tell you how absolutely barren and shallow a game feels without any kind of economy, drops or visual stats.

I think this is the core issue. CoX is a well-made game. But it focuses too much on only one aspect -- combat. They added crafting and some kind of loot later, but it's too tacked-on.

I realize most superheroes don't go around outfitting themselves with loot gained from defeated foes, but at the same time, it's never really explained where Peter Parker gets the (assuredly) expensive components for his web-shooters while at the same time he can't pay rent. Or why he never sold his web formula to DOW, or even donated it to NASA. If they revealed that all along, Spider-Man swiped components from Doc Ock's arms after tying him up, I think I'd find that to make perfect sense.

But in any RPG, the player needs goals in order to stay motivated. Multiple goals. One obvious goal is to improve the power of your character; that's handled by leveling. But a truly addictive game will present you with numerous small goals that you can balance your time working on. You can ignore some of them and still progress, but you should feel a lack if you ignore all but one or two.

CoX only has one -- beating up mobs for EXP. It has crafting, but you can completely ignore it. It has PvP, but you can completely ignore it. It has a kind of raiding process in the form of Trials and TFs, but you can completely ignore those. You can get badges, but you can ignore those, too. If you focus only on doing your missions, you'll end up at 50 and be different from someone who did all the rest only in the most irrelevant aspects.

It's my hope that Champions has multiple parallel progression paths. EXP, crafting, loot, PvP, badges, raiding, and hopefully more. And that while you don't need to satisfy all paths for a given character, if you focus on only one path, you'll noticeably suffer for it by endgame. There need to be tangible, in-game rewards for every single activity presented to you.

[Greblaja]

But anyone who has spent the last three+ years playing CoX can tell you how absolutely barren and shallow a game feels without any kind of economy, drops or visual stats.

I've played the game since beta - I don't agree whatsoever with that assertion. I have fun playing, and my character can advance himself - that's the core of what counts. I'm not sure where the notion of 'an economy is needed' comes from. Just because other games have one doesn't mean it's required fare for every game.

[Greblaja]

I realize most superheroes don't go around outfitting themselves with loot gained from defeated foes, but at the same time, it's never really explained where Peter Parker gets the (assuredly) expensive components for his web-shooters while at the same time he can't pay rent. Or why he never sold his web formula to DOW, or even donated it to NASA. If they revealed that all along, Spider-Man swiped components from Doc Ock's arms after tying him up, I think I'd find that to make perfect sense.


I guess my response is that I don't care how he manages to keep his web-shooters full, beyond whatever the storyteller cares to tell me (ie, the player of the Spiderman character). I certainly don't want a complicated system installed in the game that breaks down that production plan soup to nuts. I leave that up to the player to explain it to me however he/she sees fit, and I simply enjoy the benefits of that power, watching Spiderman swing around the baddies in game.


But in any RPG, the player needs goals in order to stay motivated. Multiple goals. One obvious goal is to improve the power of your character; that's handled by leveling. But a truly addictive game will present you with numerous small goals that you can balance your time working on. You can ignore some of them and still progress, but you should feel a lack if you ignore all but one or two.

CoX only has one -- beating up mobs for EXP. It has crafting, but you can completely ignore it. It has PvP, but you can completely ignore it. It has a kind of raiding process in the form of Trials and TFs, but you can completely ignore those. You can get badges, but you can ignore those, too. If you focus only on doing your missions, you'll end up at 50 and be different from someone who did all the rest only in the most irrelevant aspects.

It's my hope that Champions has multiple parallel progression paths. EXP, crafting, loot, PvP, badges, raiding, and hopefully more. And that while you don't need to satisfy all paths for a given character, if you focus on only one path, you'll noticeably suffer for it by endgame. There need to be tangible, in-game rewards for every single activity presented to you.

My only counter to this that I think a game should be fun to play, period. Now in fairness, that is what you are saying as well, but you are further defining a higher level of detail of what is required to be included for the game to be fun. I personally think a purely fighting game, one with no crafting, no economy, but the most pristinely designed end game imaginable could also be fun, and that a game doesn't need an economy and crafting just because it's an MMO. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on what's needed in a game for it to be fun. :)

[Lionheart]

But anyone who has spent the last three+ years playing CoX can tell you how absolutely barren and shallow a game feels without any kind of economy, drops or visual stats.

Actually, that was one of my favorite parts of CoH. I could focus on crimefighting and adventure without having to have a "virtual" job. I liked the lack of economy. It just doesn't fit the superhero genre the same way it does something like LOTRO (though there are even aspects of the economy there I don't care for).

[Silverblade]

MMOs to date (save CoH) have been loot based and personally, it's a terrible feature. As others have said, it fits fantasy settings because of the history of dungeon crawling and treasure finding but not in the superhero genre.

But it's the psychology of loot that bugs me. Once loot becomes a focal point and emphasis, it no longer becomes a game of being a superhero. The game becomes a contest of how to "gear up." Missions no longer become worthwhile for the story or because it advances the plot. Instead players will "farm" missions to get the best drops in order to gear up. Farming missions for loot is the ultimate grind in MMOs and it will be a shame if Champions falls into that trap.

So no, I don't think Champions needs an economy, even if it's an economy for my secret identity as some other posts have suggested. I mean, what if I want to play a Tony Stark type hero? Would I have to grind for years to achieve the financial success he had? An economy seems to defeat the immersion of actually playing the part of a hero and his secret identity.

[chriz]

But it's the psychology of loot that bugs me. Once loot becomes a focal point and emphasis, it no longer becomes a game of being a superhero. The game becomes a contest of how to "gear up." Missions no longer become worthwhile for the story or because it advances the plot. Instead players will "farm" missions to get the best drops in order to gear up. Farming missions for loot is the ultimate grind in MMOs and it will be a shame if Champions falls into that trap.

What exactly are you doing in CoX if not farming missions? You're just doing it for EXP.

Obviously, I can't speak for anyone else, but I almost never read the mission text in CoX. It's often too long and usually irrelevant to the point of the mission (which, 99% of the time, boils down to clearing an instanced warehouse of mobs). I'd love to have complex missions where you needed to actually comprehend the task you're given. WoW has this in about 20% of the missions. CoX almost never has it. The respec trial might be one exception.

One of CoX's biggest weaknesses for me is that the game is nothing but combat.

Gear -- however you get it -- is at least another line of progression. These lines add texture to the game.

[Lost]

You guys are totally missing my point - let me try to do a better job:

Did iron man loot that suit off of a thug in a back alley?

Did Cap get his shield from defeating Dr Doom?

Closer on point, did Superman get his cape by defeating a bunch of Brainiac bots, or did Batman get his boots by completing some mission for Commissioner Gordon? Of course not.

My take, what you want out of a game is to have fun playing it. Further, with a MMO, you want a chance to improve your character over time. That's the requirement. Tying those improvements to loot you can acquire and wear is a fairly good fit to the fantasy, dungeon romper genre: you find new stuff, it's better, use it. That's a good implementation for the fantasy genre, because you can find scores of examples of this in fantasy literature. But it's a horrible implementation for the super hero genre because it simply isn't found in the comics (save for some wild exception that someone is bound to point out here sooner or later).

To be honest, I'm somewhat insulted by this, that the devs think I'm such a simpleton that I need to have a stat-laden loot system to improve my characters because that's what WoW has so that's the only thing I'll accept. I don't understand why you guys are settling on this same old system for a super hero game when it seems clear as day to me that it fits that world as well as a left shoe on my right foot.

As I said in another it depends on the book. My family (father , 3 brothers ) collect comics since I was 7, I still buy titles every couple of months (though now adays its cheaper to get tradebacks ).

Some heroes like Image Comics had people who looted mobsters , or got thier gear from a CIA like group. I dont remember which book , but one had a super team back by a business.

Punisher , Wolverine (among other "anti heroes") have been known to loot bad guys. In Punisher he took a weapon cache , and a car. The grey hulk took money from mobsters and was a bouncer.

I think people who dont want to be part of the loot system should be able to opt out of it. I dont see how it could be a bad thing to make Vanner gain no loot drops , but give him a different way to develop thier character.

Even if its extra points , special shop to get adds or whatever. (Didnt superman's mom make his suit for him?)

[Aceldama]

To answer my own question, according to the issue of Game Informer that featured CO, there will in fact be loot, equipment slots, and crafting.

You will be able to turn the appearance of the items off.