Custom power selections and game balance?

[Gronk]

First off - Hi.
I just heard about this game and signed up here. It sounds fascinating. As a long time CoV/CoH player, comic reader and PnP RPG player, the direction that Champions Online is going is extremely interesting.

My question deals with the openness of character creation, specifically the freedom in choosing/creating powers. What is going to be in place to prevent some of the more game-breakingly overpowered combinations that are likely to get discovered and propogated throughout the community?
In a PnP setting, that's what the GM is for. He says "Yes, technically by the rules, you CAN make that combination of powers. But...NO. Not in my campaign."
Will there be anything like that in CO?

Also, on the other end of the spectrum, will there be something for the casual player to use as well? Maybe a set of effective templates or archetypes that they can choose from without having to worry about doing tons of research on the powers in order to not end up with a weak/ineffectual/gimped character?

Anyways, the whole setup sounds very promising. I'm quite eager to see how it all pans out in a MMO setting.

[Islington]

First off - Hi.
I just heard about this game and signed up here. It sounds fascinating. As a long time CoV/CoH player, comic reader and PnP RPG player, the direction that Champions Online is going is extremely interesting.

My question deals with the openness of character creation, specifically the freedom in choosing/creating powers. What is going to be in place to prevent some of the more game-breakingly overpowered combinations that are likely to get discovered and propogated throughout the community?
In a PnP setting, that's what the GM is for. He says "Yes, technically by the rules, you CAN make that combination of powers. But...NO. Not in my campaign."
Will there be anything like that in CO?

Also, on the other end of the spectrum, will there be something for the casual player to use as well? Maybe a set of effective templates or archetypes that they can choose from without having to worry about doing tons of research on the powers in order to not end up with a weak/ineffectual/gimped character?

Anyways, the whole setup sounds very promising. I'm quite eager to see how it all pans out in a MMO setting.

We don't know a whole lot at this point. But there has been mention of classes, but each class is open to every power. What differentiates them, is the cost of each power. So it might be easier for a long ranged class to learn an energy blast for example, but a melee class could learn martial arts powers for cheaper. I think this way, players who want to be the best of the best will be limited, because they only have so many points to spend, so they will not be able to invest huge sums of points into a single power and be overpowered. Of course, this is only going off of a theory, none of this is confirmed. You'll just have to wait like the rest of us :)

[Gronk]

...You'll just have to wait like the rest of us :)
Hmm, are there any other options? :D

The class-based cost structure thing sounds pretty good. That makes sense.
I'm just hoping we don't have a thousand "Regen Tanker with Fuclrum Shift and Fireball" build copies running around when someone discovers an "ultimate" character build (pardon the CoH terms).

[Greylurker]

They might use some variation of the "Rule of X" with X being determined by character level or something.

[Certified]

Hmm, are there any other options? :D

The class-based cost structure thing sounds pretty good. That makes sense.
I'm just hoping we don't have a thousand "Regen Tanker with Fuclrum Shift and Fireball" build copies running around when someone discovers an "ultimate" character build (pardon the CoH terms).

I'm hoping that power customization will keep the "Ultimate Builds" from cropping up or create enough variety that any one build is just a flavor of the month and quickly replaced as people find new ways to manipulate the system. I say this and hope that this is possible without back end changes to powers and/or costs. However, I realize that there will have to be some degree of tweaking involved no matter what.

[LemonLass]

One way to keep someone from being a god would be that you are forced to have a weakness or an Achilles heel...and/or if you choose to take a weakness in one area, you get more powerful in another. Freedom Force had a points system...so that you had a certain amount of points you could spend on character creation. For instance you can make a character that has amazing energy powers and yet is very susceptible to magic.

[otown001]

First off, if a GM doesn't let you creat the so awesome charater you think your making he's not very creative. I ran a group as GM for a GURPS super and all m players created crazy tank charaters. So as GM i made some villias that worked against there weaknesses. For instance only one out 1 of the 5 had any resistance to psi abilities. So i made the main enemy they faced a strong psicic. It was fun taking control of 1 of them and letting them figure out how to overcome the situation.

There will most likely be a crap load of missions that any player will have to face. And they allready stated it would take brain power to defeat the bosses in the game, so I'm not worried to much right now. Even if someone figures out a perfect mode to play with, it'll probably only work in solo mode.

[dazoneman]

well I probaly think that you will be able to customize the asthetics of the power more then the power of it personnaly. I mean whats the diffrence stat wise between green and purple force fields ohhh ahhh. However if they do allow to tweak powers for stats, I do think you will have to throw on a disadvantage toit like is less effective aginst fire attacks or something along those line sin order to keep the balance of power intact.

[Lugh]

One way to keep someone from being a god would be that you are forced to have a weakness or an Achilles heel...and/or if you choose to take a weakness in one area, you get more powerful in another. Freedom Force had a points system...so that you had a certain amount of points you could spend on character creation. For instance you can make a character that has amazing energy powers and yet is very susceptible to magic.


In the Champions HERO system EVERYONE had limitations and weakness.

I see that they are giving everyone their own Arch nemesis which leads to several Hunted type limits...how often will the Great and Magnificent Mission Interuptus show up to ruin your carefully laid plans?

;)

[Captain_Starlight]

One way to keep someone from being a god would be that you are forced to have a weakness or an Achilles heel...and/or if you choose to take a weakness in one area, you get more powerful in another. Freedom Force had a points system...so that you had a certain amount of points you could spend on character creation. For instance you can make a character that has amazing energy powers and yet is very susceptible to magic.


Yeah, I think Freedom Force is the perfect model to base the powers on. You could select attributes separately from your powers and if you selected a weakness or two, it made your character "cheaper" (ie used less points). If you selected attributes that only made your character stronger or more resistant, then they became more expensive points-wise.

Then of course you could invest points into your powers. They had ranged, melee, cone, AoE, direct (ie holds, etc.), special and numerous others. Then in each power you could select range, magnitude (power/damage basically), effect (piercing, smashing, cold, heat, radiation, mental, mystical, etc.), endurance cost etc. The more UBER you made your power, the more it cost you and the less you could spend on other powers. Then you had the option to level up each finished power from 1 to 5.

You could also select what your character's body was made out of. Flesh, rubber, metal, stone etc. This affected your resistances and vulnerabilities.

[Bad_Luck]

This game is gonna be pretty complicated I guess.

[nomadmon]

well it could take a step from the marvel universe PnP, if you just want to get in and do stuff right off the bat you can take the basic pwoers, without the extra options, at base cost. and if you feel you want to retune after you got a feel for the character youd probably be welcome to do so

[otown001]

This game is gonna be pretty complicated I guess.

No, not really. just because you can spec your force fields/skin/defence set to a power like cold/fire/rhino charge doesn't mean it will be easy or hard. Just means it will be differant. Say your a element rissist/big as sword hero and your mission has you up agaist a psionic/metal demon of hell. Pretty much what happens in CoH/CoV. Are you screwed? No you recruit a Metal deamon from hell killer in your group or any help other help to finish the mission. No CoH/CoV has been unbeatable, hell most of them can be 2 manned.

I have the most confidence in Criptic to make a good game. If their listening to the forums thats is.

Wink Wink

[Slipshade]

I think the powers will be pretty easy to figure out if it is anything like the pen and paper game. With the “restrictions” on character classes, aka making it more expensive for a tank type character to throw fireballs for example, you still hold some control over the players. That isn’t to say a tank can’t throw fireballs, it just means he/she won’t do it as well as a ranged character. I honestly feel this game has a lot of potential not only for creativity, but for excitement as well.

For those of you who played a tank or scrapper in City of Heroes…how many times in PvP or PvE did you wish you could launch a freaking energy blast at the corrupter hovering above you to knock them out of the air? Hehe, I think the character creation system has the chance to really make leaps and bounds beyond CoX, which I thought was impossible. I love sitting in Atlas Park and looking at the different characters people have made along with reading their bios…if powers can be modified...then we’re in for a heck of a good ride when the game releases.

Also, otown001, I disagree with you previous statements about the PnP games. Sometimes it is important to reel in players who have gone off the deep end with character creation. I have players that are devious and intelligent, so it makes it very difficult to give them a challenge. One of my players especially is a power gamer and uses his lack of life to learn the ins and outs of the game so he can “win”. I have broken this habit of his, but it took a long time! I tried to up the challenges of the missions and the rest of the group died, lol. I think Champions was the hardest PnP game I’ve ever run, as the combat is far more advanced then…I swing my sword and do 4d6 of damage. But I have to admit…my Champion games were the favorite of my gaming group, and no matter how sidetracked we get…we always come back to it. Brilliant game!

[Sabrel]

The trick with weaknesses is balancing your fights so the player is forced to face their weakness at times (no street sweeping all fire enemies when your weakness is ice), but at the same time not constantly ramming it down their throats. If /everybody/ you fight has kryptonite bullets, it really cheapens the "super" feel. That is what kept Cryptic from doing them in CoX, and the irritating implementation of Kheldian weaknesses largely reinforced my view that they made the right call.

Considering all the customization options they're aiming to put in, I'm dubious about the wisdom of adding yet another factor that will need to be tweaked heavily to find the "sweet spot." It would be awesome if they could pull it off, though.

[Bad_Luck]

No, not really. just because you can spec your force fields/skin/defence set to a power like cold/fire/rhino charge doesn't mean it will be easy or hard. Just means it will be differant. Say your a element rissist/big as sword hero and your mission has you up agaist a psionic/metal demon of hell. Pretty much what happens in CoH/CoV. Are you screwed? No you recruit a Metal deamon from hell killer in your group or any help other help to finish the mission. No CoH/CoV has been unbeatable, hell most of them can be 2 manned.

I have the most confidence in Criptic to make a good game. If their listening to the forums thats is.

Wink Wink

Oh, I'm sure I can parse it out, but I don't have any pnp experience so I'll probably be at a disadvantage, so to speak.

[Certified]

In the Hero System adding advantages to a power increase the base cost of the power, so as it is a point buy system creating an "uber" power like a Killing Attack Hand to Hand with No Normal Defense and Does Body. For non-Herophiles Hero has 2 types of "Hit Points" Stun witch is easy to recover and controls being knocked out and Body harder to recover and can be lethal. A Killing attack does Body damage Primarily and as a Killing Attack Hand to Hand it factors your strength into the damage. When taking any attack with the No Normal Defense defense it looses the Body Damage unless you take a second advantage of Does Body. By the time everything is added together the base cost of this power has tripled. Northing's stopping you from taking it but your points may be better spent elsewhere.

[TerraDraconis]

Well they have stated there will be loose frameworks they are tentatively referring to as 'classes'. The class you select will change to cost of powers. Ie powers that fit your particular class will have a discount. So a Brick will get a discount on armor, strength and the like but can take energy blasts and other powers if they want. Thats why I'm already pushing for teams to consider the Brick should take the healing powers to heal the team. They have the best defences so they should be healing. ;)

The second aspect that will help will be respecifications/rebuilding of your character. One of the reasons that the open approach was canned in COH had to do with both the ease of making a tank/mage and the ease of gimping yourself. But the original plans also did not have a mechanism for changing your build and fixing your character if you utter broke yourself in character creation. I fully expect that this will not happen here.

[Roach]

I agree. Most of the power creation possibilities should be self-balancing due to the high Build Points cost that accrues quickly in the Champions Game engine and the added "self-gimping" of adding weakness to a power to offset the total cost. Keep in mind the MMO must have some form of making the PC Toon pay END, Karma, Power, etc each time a power is used. This can get expensive due to a Mega-Power high creation cost converts to a high casting-cost. Who would use a 12d6 RKA- No Normal Def- Does Body- Only effective under water even if I did get it cheap? Or that same RKA if it took half my power each time to use and I had little in the way of Defenses cause I ran out of points during creation. In Champions (pnp) you could eventually buy off weaknesses, but it took a long time and wasn't cheap.
In my opinion< the DEV's should be fine in translating the PnP game directly to code for the MMO, only certain weaknesses and powers would be left out..... like shapeshifting and maybe the dependent weakness.
My own personal want from this game is to not be stuck with the standard "comic book" physical archetypes. I don't always want to play a Toon with a body like a Greek God. I may want to play an Obese guy named the Schlob, a tall skinny meth-head looking toon named Tapeworm or a truelly alien looking toon not designed around the Human Biped form that resembles a large black bowling named Bloc.
I have always enjoyed the diversity of Champions pnp and I can't wait for this game to come out and I hope it is everything CoH/CoV was supposed to be but isn't.

[Wraithlord]

Well hearing that there might or are plans for classes or AT's is a BIG turnoff. Cause it'll come down to my defender pays to much for his attacks but that blasters heal is too cheap kinda balance issues that stink in CoX. Think fully customization to me means just that. The "they'll make gimp builds" is so overplayed because it still happens. Just have an easy way to fix your characters with hints thrown in and be done with it. I guess i'll just have to hope that things turn out as good as my initial reaction felt when hearing about CO.

[Greylurker]

Until we get more info we are generally stuck with "Wait and See"

In the HERO system they work the Power Creation by giving everyone a list of Generic Powers that you then customize and modifiy.

Energy Blast can become
Energy Blast (Raw Energy damage) using a Focus (Ray Gun) that has a limit of 15 shots before you need to load a new clip
or
Energy Blast (fire damage) AOE: Sphere, continuous sticky effect (IE: Damage continues after the initial use of the power and spreads to anyone the victims come into contact with) with tripple endurance cost.
or
Energy Blast (physical damage) Zero Range, explosive, personal immunity.

Judging from what we have heard they will assign point costs on the Generic powers based on your class. A Brink generally isn't going to have Mind Control so that might cost 5 points a rank while Invulnerability might only cost 1 point a rank. It's not going to stop the Brink from having Mind Control he's just not well suited for it.

But it would be one heck of a surprise and with enough limitations put on it to bring the cost down it could still be very powerfull.

Mind Control; single command ("fight me"), single target, only works on someone you've successfully hit, linked to Punch Attack.

[Spiderbox]

It seems that the more options available to customize powers can be a round about way of encouraging group play. The more specialized a character gets with an ability, the more often they may run into situations that they are not well suited to overcome. This would result in a lot more mission recruiting for characters with the 'right' powers.

[Northlander]

This game is gonna be pretty complicated I guess.

This is basically why I feel they should have functional build plans; basically each time you level and train the game automatically offers you a power/power upgrade that's next in queue in your plan. Of course you should also be able to replace this power if you feel it wasn't a good choice.

This way they could easily provide you sample character plans that they know are fully functional and work well within the game. It would also work as a base for you to easily tweak said characters without doing it all from the scratch every time you start a new character.

I also like the planner so it can inform "point costs" of powers (or what not) and warnt if your character is about to be gimped: i.e. missing attack. Then again, it's entirely possible that they have certain guidelines for character: i.e. character must always pick at least one attack and one defense power/whatever at level 1 (or when starting the character). So perhaps for every x levels there is "must pick one of these" powers.

[Whispen]

In one of the ancient and dusty mini-magazines they printed a combat effectiveness calculator. It allowed the GM to get a rough numerical rating of the characters combat effectiveness which was great. It factored in things like Body, Stun, Dex, biggest attack, defense scores, etc and ignored the fact that you spoke 7 languages and had a PhD in 5 scientific fields or could forego food and water if you had exposure to sunlight once a day.

It was a great tool and I'd imagine that they'll have something similar built into the game that would allow a character to get a rough idea of whether they were spending enough on their combat skills to avoid painful difficulty or prevent the 150pt character from having a single 100pt death ray with 50pts spent in superduper accuracy.