Cel-Shaded vs. Rotoscoping (Warning, educational content inside)

[DrSpaceman]

Referencing back to this thread (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=6725) here. The purpose of a new thread was to prevent the desired answers from getting buried in rubble.

As an independent game developer myself, allow me to share some brief insight into this topic, since this is the same kind of style that we've been working on in our game, and can hopefully clear up this question. The question being asked was whether or not the "comic" or "cel" shading could be turned on or off if the user doesn't like it.

Of course, one has to take into consideration on whether or not they're truly Cel-shading, or ROTOSCOPING the effect into the game. What's the difference between cel-shading and rotoscoping you ask?:

Cel-Shading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cel-shading) creates the the effect quite literally in the object, it's built into the model itself. Robot with and WITHOUT toon shading (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Toon-shader.jpg)

Rotoscoping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotoscoping) creates the effect AFTER the fact, OR procedurely generates the effect on the fly. The most recent Prince of Persia (http://prince-of-persia.us.ubi.com/index.php) game used rotoscoping for it's cartoon style, and the movie A Scanner Darkly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXpGaOqb2Z8) also used this method.

Both are two VERY different ways of achieving almost the same effect. That being said, I am going to hedge my bet that the game is ROTOSCOPED, based on the fact that players have a LOT of control over how their characters look, with scalability and tweaking of body form and structure, with millions of possible combinations and choices, so it really makes using the Cel-shaded method highly unlikely.

Now, before someone comes screaming and says "OH MY GOD BUT CRYPTIC SAID IT'S CELSHADEDEDED!1oneone", you need to realize that the term cel-shaded is commonly used as a "catch all" term to describe the end effect, and not the methodology of which is used to achieve said effect.

Also, before I'm done, I noticed someone in the thread up above who said that game devs don't make two separate graphics engines for games, I can attest to that as being quite FALSE. See The Dark Spire (http://www.atlus.com/darkspire/), which utilizes two completely separate graphics engines, one MODERN looking one, and just for gits and shiggles, decided to make a completely old school one as well, both of which are included in the finished game. And this game was literally just released a few weeks ago.

TL;DR VERSION

If Cryptic is using Cel-Shading, then you probably won't be able to toggle the effect off.

If Cryptic is using Rotoscoping, then there's a good chance that you could toggle the effect on and off, if they ALLOW you to do as such with the client.

From wikipedia: "Interpolated rotoscoping can be used to create a similar effect, but the source material does not need to be computer generated. In addition, rotoscoping is applied to an existing image, whereas cel-shading is applied during the generation of the image."



/spacemanOut

[djshef]

I have to say that was an amazing post. Thanks for the information and links. I learned something new today. :D

[DrSpaceman]

No problem, I aim to please.

If anything, indie developing has taught me a lot about the cycle and how things like this can affect you in the long run.

[djshef]

No problem, I aim to please.

If anything, indie developing has taught me a lot about the cycle and how things like this can affect you in the long run.

Are you free to share about some of the projects you're working on?

[DrSpaceman]

Are you free to share about some of the projects you're working on?

Considering that I'm the boss, I'd say yes, yes I am. :D

I can't say TOO much for obvious reasons, but I can say that basically what we're working on is a ecosystem simulator type game. Not quite SimEarth, but think of it like this, just throwing it out there.

What if say, chopping down all those trees in any other MMO actually lead to something? What would you foresee happening to the environment? Something like that.

Really working on a style of game that wholly fosters community spirit and makes people care and feel invested in their virtual world. If not enough people are around doing their part, you WILL eventually see the world start to fall apart and it gets harder to play.

And no, this isn't a fly by night kind of affair. :p It's been 2 years in the making thus far, fairly close to a solid alpha state.

[djshef]

Considering that I'm the boss, I'd say yes, yes I am. :D

I can't say TOO much for obvious reasons, but I can say that basically what we're working on is a ecosystem simulator type game. Not quite SimEarth, but think of it like this, just throwing it out there.

What if say, chopping down all those trees in any other MMO actually lead to something? What would you foresee happening to the environment? Something like that.

Really working on a style of game that wholly fosters community spirit and makes people care and feel invested in their virtual world. If not enough people are around doing their part, you WILL eventually see the world start to fall apart and it gets harder to play.

And no, this isn't a fly by night kind of affair. :p It's been 2 years in the making thus far, fairly close to a solid alpha state.

That sounds pretty amazing, I'd assume the effects would be subtle and based on the quality and quantity of the effects put on it, so some random guy just cant salt and burn the entire environment. Positive or negative change would require the community as a whole to foster it in.

[DrSpaceman]

That sounds pretty amazing, I'd assume the effects would be subtle and based on the quality and quantity of the effects put on it, so some random guy just cant salt and burn the entire environment. Positive or negative change would require the community as a whole to foster it in.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. If everyone in the community is slacking off, you're going to notice the environment degrade over time, and as seasons change, you'll start to notice the changes. Next winter will be just a bit harder than the last one, you won't find as many random harvestables laying around, things like that. We're more concentrating on the world itself, as opposed to a stage to run around in that's mostly meaningless, and is just "set dressing."

And if I say there's no combat, people will flip out and throw a fit.

Oh, there's no combat. /bracingforit :D

But anywho, back on ye olde topic. :p

[djshef]

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. If everyone in the community is slacking off, you're going to notice the environment degrade over time, and as seasons change, you'll start to notice the changes. Next winter will be just a bit harder than the last one, you won't find as many random harvestables laying around, things like that. We're more concentrating on the world itself, as opposed to a stage to run around in that's mostly meaningless, and is just "set dressing."

And if I say there's no combat, people will flip out and throw a fit.

Oh, there's no combat. /bracingforit :D

But anywho, back on ye olde topic. :p

I'd give some complete stranger's right arm for a Harvest Moon MMO!

[DrSpaceman]

I'd give some complete stranger's right arm for a Harvest Moon MMO!

>_>

<_<

>_>

o_o

:D

I won't say much more than this, but....

Let me tell you, it's pretty interesting when you have 3 people working one little farm, it makes your chores a lot faster and more fun!

[Nightmare]

Just want to say the OP was awesome for two reasons. First was that was a cool read and thank you very much :)

Second for the term "gits and shiggles" somehow I just never stumbled on that before. Now if I mess it up at work, do you have any need for a network guy on your staff? ;)

[DrSpaceman]

Just want to say the OP was awesome for two reasons. First was that was a cool read and thank you very much :)

Second for the term "gits and shiggles" somehow I just never stumbled on that before. Now if I mess it up at work, do you have any need for a network guy on your staff? ;)

Gits and shiggles was a term that we used way back in the day when I was in high school, on the newspaper staff, it was one of our monthly articles that we'd post. The staff thoroughly enjoyed it.

That being said, quite possibly. We've come across some snags as of late in the network department, just casually throwing that out there. Being indie is tough when you have next to no budget and you're just working on something really cool that you'd like to share with other people just for the sake of doing it.

Right now, we've been running some sprawl tests, basically fast fowarding the game client by 100 to see what will happen to the world if left unattended. Pretty interesting stuff!

And as an aside, and also to keep this within the scope of the current board, we're currently debating on whether or not to use the Cryptic Animation Rig (http://www.crypticar.com/) to handle all our big animootin'. :D

[Robota]

I approve of this post.

You may take your place in the humen reservation when we mechanisms conquer this world.

[Seraphus]

I fell in love with the cinematic artistic approach of roto a while back, and while it would be nice to see in CO (or any game for that matter),I still think cell shading does the game industry justice.

[DrSpaceman]

I fell in love with the cinematic artistic approach of roto a while back, and while it would be nice to see in CO (or any game for that matter),I still think cell shading does the game industry justice.

I agree. I think it's really awesome to see comics/cartoons to come to life through this methodology. Now, that doesn't mean that it's appropriate everywhere all the time, but it's great when used correctly.

I don't think Jet Set Radio (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1XL434RAQc) would have been the same if it had been designed any other way. Cel-shading also does an amazing job of standing the test of time.

[karami92]

If your program is close to alpha, id love to try it out first chance i get :) only problem is i do not believe i am old enough to sign a legally binding contract such as an NDA, which i believe may be part of my no beta thing.......

[Atsu_Nexus]

Ok as an indie developer myself. ( i've only work on design docs, 3d models, animation, so u can say im like the lead artist/ game designer of the group.) im still workin on finding a good pipeline and most importantly PROGRAMMERS!

you gotta pm me ur secret or somethin on how u got programmers lol. besides that, your idea is a really great one. I've seen it done on a game called Origin or something close to that. Where if players cut down all the trees and mass hunted the same resources, it would not only affect that county, but it would spread through the land and could affect neighboring countries and kingdoms, So unless there's like a huge group of players that tries to be conservative, and a large group that tries to industrialist, you could see only one posisble ending. And that's basically what happened to that game. It kept ending one way. Also, importantly is there a way that a player can "give" back to the enviornment. I think that's the main reason it failed. There was no way to "replace" what you took.

[Nightmare]

When is the next scheduled informative post? :) Seriously, feel free to post when something comes up and you think people might like to know more details. I for one will suck up any info even if it is technically "useless" to me. Helps keep the brain working :)

[Robota]

I agree. I think it's really awesome to see comics/cartoons to come to life through this methodology. Now, that doesn't mean that it's appropriate everywhere all the time, but it's great when used correctly.

I don't think Jet Set Radio (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1XL434RAQc) would have been the same if it had been designed any other way. Cel-shading also does an amazing job of standing the test of time.

Jet Set Radio was indeed ****ing awesome. The sequal was pretty good too

[DrSpaceman]

It would be pretty interesting to see a dev response on this, since I haven't ever seen it actually brought up, in regard to the cel/roto method.

[Sayyan]

Thought I'd post this here as well, taken from the latest Massively article:

"And in case you're wondering, yes you can turn off the "comicbook" shading in the visual options."

[Atsu_Nexus]

YAY alt. screen shot options. that's like making the comic book look you want, then making lifelike screens for cinamatic purposes lol. really don't care about the option to do that, but it's nice to know that is there. That means alot of people can't complain that they don't like the graphics. Good find man.

props:cool:

[Solarfox]

I saw that on massively too, but I wish they would of posted some screenshots of both styles for the sake of comparison. Myself I'm not a big fan of cel-shading, and prefer a more realistic look, so it's very possible I'd play CO without the cel-shading.

But until I can see how it looks without it it's hard to say.

[DrSpaceman]

Thought I'd post this here as well, taken from the latest Massively article:

"And in case you're wondering, yes you can turn off the "comicbook" shading in the visual options."

Amazing find, thank you! And that settles that. Chances are, rotoscoped!

[SaintKairos]

the game has neither.
what is has is a cartoony look to it's models, and standard proportions and UI appearance/style. This gives the game a 4-color feel.
then they put a hard outline on everything. the hard outline is "drawn" afterwards, from the perspective of the camera, and can be removed.

when the hard outline is removed, the game looks like a more cartoony, 4-color CoX. The textures are all there, the shading is on a gradiant, and light bouncing effects can be seen as well as metalic reflections, complex textures... and near as I can tell, there's some very nice light sourcing (albeit, limited, it's an MMO after all).

read this post, then go tot he main site and look at the screen shots. you'll see what I mean. It is not cel shaded, and it's not had flatness forced upon it, like a rotoscoped image at all. It's not flat, it's just outlined, making the different "layers" of a scene or landscape pop out from one another.
IMHO, it's a very effective technique, and it does not make you lose any useful information. The spatial relationships get simplified, but all the raw effects are still there, just demarcated.
---
I'm not a programmer.
I really don't know how to describe what I'm talking about properly, but I hope it made sense.
Near as I can tell (I'm no expert).
this game is neither.
-

[DrSpaceman]

Unfortunately, what you've just described is in fact just that. Rotoscoping. :D

I lol'd a little bit.

Seriously, go and see if you can find the making of A Scanner Darkly. What you just described is the same process of which they used to make the film. It was filmed completely with normal actors in every scene, which only took 3-4 months of filming. The ROTOSCOPING took 18 months to do, with about 23 different graphic artists going over every single frame drawing over it.

If I remember correctly, there's even a version of the completed film floating around out there somewhere with none of the rotoscoping present.

There's a few quite a few other games that use this exact same technique,

Jet (Set) Grind Radio
Jet Set Radio Future
Prince of Persia 2008
XIII
Sly Cooper
Legend of Zelda Wind Waker
No More Heroes
Killer 7 .................

The list just goes on and on.

[SovereignDark]

Always cool to learn something new, very insightfull post Spaceman.

I do believe that the massively interview about character creation says that the ability to turn the comic book look off is available. (Sorry if it was said already, only read the first page :D)

[SaintKairos]

Unfortunately, what you've just described is in fact just that. Rotoscoping. :D

I lol'd a little bit.

Seriously, go and see if you can find the making of A Scanner Darkly. What you just described is the same process of which they used to make the film. It was filmed completely with normal actors in every scene, which only took 3-4 months of filming. The ROTOSCOPING took 18 months to do, with about 23 different graphic artists going over every single frame drawing over it.

If I remember correctly, there's even a version of the completed film floating around out there somewhere with none of the rotoscoping present.

There's a few quite a few other games that use this exact same technique,

Jet (Set) Grind Radio
Jet Set Radio Future
Prince of Persia 2008
XIII
Sly Cooper
Legend of Zelda Wind Waker
No More Heroes
Killer 7 .................

The list just goes on and on.

OK, I'm confused here.
no matter HOW it is produced (though I know that's your whole point), Prince of Persia and Scanner Darkly (I've seen it, it was alright) both have no gradient to their shading, it's all flat sections of color that move across the textured polygons (or in the case of Scanner, the colors and shades of the actor's faces, and well... everything, were altered to have flat sections of color and shading that visually represented the gross areas of difference in color and shade.

this is not what I'm describing.
If Scanner darkly was shot using the sort of thing I'm describing than there would be no flat colors and shade sections AT ALL, you'd merely have outlines. Visually, you'd see Keanu Reaves with a black outline around his head, and when he'd turn his head, one would pop out around his nose (separating the field of view when the objects overlap, like the nose over his face), but at no point would the changing gradient of the light across his face get algorithmically simplified into bands of internally homogeneous hue and shade.
scanner (http://thecia.com.au/reviews/s/images/scanner-darkly-5.jpg)
prince of persia (http://xboxoz360.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/prince-of-persia-12.jpg) (has texture that complicate the visual simplicity of the flat sections of shade that overlay them)
champions: (http://champions-online.com/screenshots?img=161), note the smooth gradient of shade that goes down the robot's shoulder and back, that is not a block of color and shade, it's a smooth gradient, like old fashioned ray tracing.
See (http://champions-online.com/screenshots?page=1&img=161) how smoothly the shade transitions from where the sun hits the side of his tricepts and shoulder and how it's even lighter at the top of his shoulder than the side of his arm, yet both are in the sun? that's a gradient. The Colors and shades don't have stark relationships, they're blended except where they are broken by lines, where one color begins and another ends.
I don't know if they use rotoscoping or not, but I know the net effect is not one of hue and shade flattening, but merely object bordering. If it requires rotoscoping to draw that line, then sure, you're right... but the shading within the details of the object don't seem to by generated by the same sort of animal that you describe, unless I'm missing something.
-

[djshef]

OK, I'm confused here.
no matter HOW it is produced (though I know that's your whole point), Prince of Persia and Scanner Darkly (I've seen it, it was alright) both have no gradient to their shading, it's all flat sections of color that move across the textured polygons (or in the case of Scanner, the colors and shades of the actor's faces, and well... everything, were altered to have flat sections of color and shading that visually represented the gross areas of difference in color and shade.

this is not what I'm describing.
If Scanner darkly was shot using the sort of thing I'm describing than there would be no flat colors and shade sections AT ALL, you'd merely have outlines. Visually, you'd see Keanu Reaves with a black outline around his head, and when he'd turn his head, one would pop out around his nose (separating the field of view when the objects overlap, like the nose over his face), but at no point would the changing gradient of the light across his face get algorithmically simplified into bands of internally homogeneous hue and shade.
-

Considering most of this stuff looks like you pulled it out the side of your ass, I'm going to go ahead and go with the whole rotoscoping thing.

[SaintKairos]

Considering most of this stuff looks like you pulled it out the side of your ass, I'm going to go ahead and go with the whole rotoscoping thing.
it doesn't matter where I pulled it from, I'm describing the appearance.
All you have to do is have eyes and a nifty set of adjectives to describe what you see.
I'm making no attempt to to describe how the end product is produced.
my point, is made humbly, putting on no airs of expertise at all, I merely pay attention.

and CO does not have flat sections of shade and hue. It has smooth gradients.
if rotoscoping was used to only create the outline, then SHAZAM, then he must be right.
but the game, when viewed critically, does not feature the stark, flat sections that Prince of Persia and Scanner Darkly have.
they look almost as though they are ray-traced, but have a black outline slapped on them.
---
hey, I'm no programmer, but I'll be damned if I pulled simple, human, astute observations out of my ass.
I'm merely describing what is.
agree with it or not, perhaps my lack of expertise means I'm using the wrong words, but my descriptions hold true to what can clearly be seen in the screenshots.
I'm trying to use evidence available to everyone, but believe when I say that the end product, with the outline turned off, does not look flat at all.
I'm in the Beta, I should know.
but hey, apparently I'm pulling that out of my ass too.:rolleyes:
here (http://champions-online.com/screenshots?page=1&img=161) notice that her face is one color, but the smooth shading makes it so that the top of her forehead the bottom, the crease between her cheeks and nose and the top of her nose are all different shades, but all blend smoothly with no blocky sections, clear demarcations or separations of any kind. Each variation of the root color of her face is altered by the lighting as a real object might, with nearly countless gradients between the extremes.

can I say it any clearer?
---
again, I'm making no judgement about whether rotoscoping is or is not involved in the line-tracing effect. All I know is that the lighting and shading effects do not produce blocky or flat effects. It looks like toy-story with the line drawn around the overlapping planes, it does not look like the new Zelda, the old Hulk game, Scanner Darkly, Prince of Persia, Lucy: Daughter of the Devil, Drinky Crow, The Nurato (whatever the hell it's called) game, those comercials that were out like a couple years ago that looked like Scanner Darkly... none of them. It looks like Toy Story with an outline around the objects.
the outline can be turned off.
-

[Demitr1]

Thanks for the info spaceman.

[TrollIRL]

wow that was very informational

hi five!

p.s. i hope its rotoscoped

[aaarhga]

Compare the shadows on the overalls(jumpsuits?) in theese two pictures:

http://uploads.champions-online.com/co_screen_060109_04.jpg
http://www.atari.com/us/dragonballz/infiniteworld/screens/2x.jpg

Is that what you was hinting at SaintKairos?