Pick Our Own Powers? How Are You Preventing Gimps?

[Powerhelm]

Waaaay back in the day of CoH development in 2001/2002 that game was designed so that you picked an Origin and that affected the number of powers you could choose.

Tech for example could choose 5 powers (lets say 2 types of blasts and 3 others are what I choose) but they'd each be weaker than say the Natural with it's 3 power choices (so same 2 blasts) held by someone with fewer choices in power would be more effective to balance out the lack of flexibility.

Cryptic promised the CoH community almost everything they're promising the Champions community. What I'm wondering is will this be just like CoH? Will you guys show us the ability to freely select our powers then go "Oops we'll have people too stupid to pick an attack AND a defense so lets make classes that force them to pick certain powers from a pre-selected pool" ala CoH, when the first build was scrapped after getting rave reviews from the community and E3 awards...

You say we can select most any power(s) we want.

What I wanna know is what's the catch?

Must pick one offensive and one defensive attack?

How are you preventing Jack's personal bane the tank-mage?

Will you allow us to "gimp" ourselves?

The answers to these questions are really what's gonna determine whether or not you basically get the entire CoH subscriber-base back along with those that left because of ATs and such back in '03/'04 before CoH even launched...

[TerraDraconis]

Now this is second claw information ... Ie I've read what someone else posted from the Game Informer article. ... So take it with a huge block of salt.

Champions Online will use classes and point buy to control that. IE every single class can buy every single power. .... But ... the costs are different for the powers between classes and likely there are some base sets or frameworks available off the bat. I can easily seeing you selecting from an offensive and defensive pick as your first to choices just to keep you from totally gimping yourself.

My assumptions based on the little third claw info I have are that we get a point buy to start similiar to champions the RPG. It won't be an exact match of course because they need room to grow but they will want you to get a basic selection of powers at the start. Have to see what more they tell us.

[Greyhawke]

I think they could get by with suggested builds as options, similar to how the neverwinter advancement system works. However, I also think that with CoH they underestimated the comprehension level of the customers whn it made the decision to dumb things down and limit our choices. Add in the possibility of respecs, and even making a bad choice isn't altogether permanent.

So yeah, a couple of buttons like 'build to template' and 'suggest power selection' would be plenty helpful without being overly limiting.

[Powerhelm]

So I've heard this game will heavily or at least somewhat take off the number system of the HERO 5th Edition is that correct?

I mean, could we start making a rough build of our characters now with that book??? If so...*dashes out to buy HERO 5th edition*

[Baron]

actually no Powerhelm, I believe it's mentiond that it will be "influenced" by the HERO system which doesn't really mean anything supposedly CoH was also "incluenced."

[Thia.Halmades]

So I've heard this game will heavily or at least somewhat take off the number system of the HERO 5th Edition is that correct?

I mean, could we start making a rough build of our characters now with that book??? If so...*dashes out to buy HERO 5th edition*

I mean, by all means, go buy the book. :D We, the HERO collected, endorse you joining us. However, no, the game doesn't have (and really cannot have) anywhere NEAR the flexibility offered by true PnP role playing. An MMO will always be a pale imitation of true RP. Fun in its own right, yes, but it doesn't come close to beating arguing what goes on the pizza and who's turn it is. ;) So please, buy the book, get a feel for the system, and run (or join) a game. You can find us at www.herogames.com/

[TerraDraconis]

So I've heard this game will heavily or at least somewhat take off the number system of the HERO 5th Edition is that correct?

I mean, could we start making a rough build of our characters now with that book??? If so...*dashes out to buy HERO 5th edition*

The rules will not be a perfect fit. That said I expect to see some basic similiarities in basic character design. Ie it has already been implied in the Game Informer article that a new character is built using a form of point buy. The obvious difference listed in that article is that there will be a glass that modifies the costs of various powers. This is not a HERO game mechanic but something being done in part to avoid players self gimping themselves.

I suspect that the class thing means that if you choose oh... the Brick class you can buy an energy attack or control power but it will cost more than if you bought a weapon or strength based attack. While and Energy Projector could buy the energy attack for alot less but would spend alot more buying armor or other defenses.

[GT01]

Now, something I'd like to know is how interactable the environment is. From what the fellows at Game Informer said during their article, this game plays suspiciously similar to Marvel Ultimate Alliance (haha! reference). Will characters with enough super-powered strength be able to, let's say, pick up cars or streetlights and wield them as makeshift weapons/explosives? Will characters with the right kind of energy blast powers be able to wreck said objects, with enough prejudice to cause them to explode and possibly damage nearby enemies? Things of that nature, y'know?

[Shotgunbadger]

Now this is second claw information ... Ie I've read what someone else posted from the Game Informer article. ... So take it with a huge block of salt.

Champions Online will use classes and point buy to control that. IE every single class can buy every single power. .... But ... the costs are different for the powers between classes and likely there are some base sets or frameworks available off the bat. I can easily seeing you selecting from an offensive and defensive pick as your first to choices just to keep you from totally gimping yourself.

My assumptions based on the little third claw info I have are that we get a point buy to start similiar to champions the RPG. It won't be an exact match of course because they need room to grow but they will want you to get a basic selection of powers at the start. Have to see what more they tell us.


I like this system, yes your pure melee fighter CAN get a self heal and ranged attacks, but it would cost around 3 times the points that getting another melee or defence type power would. That would still give choice, but help at the very least curb the 'tank-mages'.

[Phantastik]

Tank-mages? pffft.

It's the Presence "engines" you need to worry about ;)

Phan

[8Seconds]

I don't think you can make an game via the PnP rule set. I'm sure they will try to stick to some of the basics HOWEVER translating a book to the magic numbers behind the code could be harder than you think. Granted the books GIVE you the numbers but remember Champions uses a dice pool and TONS of checks. HOw do you mimic that via the backend?

I would like to know if Disadvantages are going to be implemented as well. Now that would be a twist.

[Tempestus]

I mean, by all means, go buy the book. :D We, the HERO collected, endorse you joining us. However, no, the game doesn't have (and really cannot have) anywhere NEAR the flexibility offered by true PnP role playing. An MMO will always be a pale imitation of true RP. Fun in its own right, yes, but it doesn't come close to beating arguing what goes on the pizza and who's turn it is. ;) So please, buy the book, get a feel for the system, and run (or join) a game. You can find us at www.herogames.com/


Sigh, so I wont be able to have my 0 end, persistent, continuous, always on, NND, damage shield, bought up so it does body, against any mental contact? Aww. Actually, I usually wouldn't take that, I only did it because the one guy who bought very powerfull mind control, and then made it so he couldn't not use it when he spoke to anyone.

But yeah, that kind of flexibility is fun when you're sitting around the table, but not something that's really feasible in an mmo. Partly because of the sheer number of possibilities being too immense to really code, partly because it lends itself to being so severely abused by min/maxxers, that it takes the fun out of it for everyone else.

[Ephezius]

What I wanna know is what's the catch?

Must pick one offensive and one defensive attack?

How are you preventing Jack's personal bane the tank-mage?


Here's an interesting quote from the GI article:

"The traditional roles are not so clear in Champions Online. For instance, anybody can tank - they just tank differently."


Tank/Mage, here we come.

[Saikyo-RyuHatman]

Tank/Mage, here we come.
And? I don't see how that's a bad thing provided they break the holy trinity mentality. Getting pretty tired of being only good at one single thing.

[JamesGillen]

So I've heard this game will heavily or at least somewhat take off the number system of the HERO 5th Edition is that correct?

Um, no. It has nothing to do with HERO System, which is deliberate so that the DOJ company that owns HERO retains rights to that system. Also, Cryptic started off with its own system for a super MMORPG and will not be using HERO, though there might be some influence. The idea is to get the brand-name recognition of the Champions Universe for the computer game and tie-ins to the Cryptic graphics and computer game-based sales for DOJ, which will license Champions Universe-based books (tied into Cryptic's version of the universe).

JG

[TerraDraconis]

Um, no. It has nothing to do with HERO System, which is deliberate so that the DOJ company that owns HERO retains rights to that system. Also, Cryptic started off with its own system for a super MMORPG and will not be using HERO, though there might be some influence. The idea is to get the brand-name recognition of the Champions Universe for the computer game and tie-ins to the Cryptic graphics and computer game-based sales for DOJ, which will license Champions Universe-based books (tied into Cryptic's version of the universe).

JG


Actually if you paid attention to Jack's Blog entry they are trying to stay as close to the HERO mechanics as being a computer game will allow them to. They are not claiming to be using the HERO system rules simply because to much will end up being changed to fit the requirements of the computer. But from the hints dropped so far the initial plan sounds like it is definately influenced by HERO mechanics.

IE you pick a class [not HERO] that effects the cost of your powers that you buy [notHERO] and you have access to all potential powers [HERO]. Last you likely start with a pool of points to spend of unknown size [HERO]. So the mechanics will be and not be HERO which is why they are not claiming to faithfully follow the rules.

[Raell]

I would like to know if Disadvantages are going to be implemented as well. Now that would be a twist.



I was thinking of the same thing. The thing I liked about Champions was that if you could think it up, you could build it. So what if I had to chop a characters hand off.

[TerraDraconis]

I was thinking of the same thing. The thing I liked about Champions was that if you could think it up, you could build it. So what if I had to chop a characters hand off.


There is a thread somewhere around here with a dev reply to the question. They are going to try and find a way to work disads into the game because they can be character defining.

[Static]

What if they do a tree based system where you have basic attacks that everyone will have at first (or there coulld be like 4 starting areas that you can choose from) and that stems out in a logical fashion, yet still allows alot of freedom in what pwoers you want. Because the problem i can see, is the lack of 'structure' in a build that would perform very well eg. in CoH you could take energy transfer, aim, build up, firey embrace, bitter ice blast, dull pain, hibernate, blaze...in other words builds that wouldn't be plausible in terms of concept.

[Ithryn_Incarnate]

I'll just be looking forward to tryin out whatever system they do bring out, I'm quite a COX fan and have faith (albeit not complete or blind =P) in Cryptic =D

[Wyrm_Ouroboros]

I mean, by all means, go buy the book. :D We, the HERO collected, endorse you joining us. However, no, the game doesn't have (and really cannot have) anywhere NEAR the flexibility offered by true PnP role playing. An MMO will always be a pale imitation of true RP. Fun in its own right, yes, but it doesn't come close to beating arguing what goes on the pizza and who's turn it is. ;) So please, buy the book, get a feel for the system, and run (or join) a game. You can find us at www.herogames.com/

You mean you won't be able to have your Ice Cream Cone of Smiting?

Crap.

Well, I rep you anyhow.

... crap.

[darkspeed]

I definitely will be a challenge.

Not only will they need to balance the powers and the their point costs, they will also need to balance the actual content of the game so that powers and abilities have a use.

Say theres a Super strength power and a Super security expert power. Super strength ups your melee damage, increases the range and size of thing you can throw and lets you rip open locked doors. Security expert lets you pick locks, hack into computer systems where you can get info like mission maps, disable traps, remotely open doors, reprogramme turrets and robots to fight on your side and various other cool stuff.

Both very useful. But, if only every 50th mission, say, has anything in it that the Security power can be used on, whereas they all have people to be punched in them, then suddenly superstrength is much, much better.

I don't envy them the task of balancing all this, and I am really looking forward to seeing what they come up with!

[Hhussk]

I have a response to the original question, paraphrased [how do you create a system that doesn't allow gimps?]


Well, it's early in the conceptualization, but here is why I have faith in CO:


Basically, let's say you have 50 points.
With those points, you buy as many powers as you can. Now, you have lots of powers. Does this make you a gimp?

No. Because while you have lots of powers, you haven't developed them. The original system allowed you to buy a power and pump more points into it for damage, radius, etc.

Take #2: let's say you have 50 points.
With those points, you buy one power. An energy blast that is buffed to incredible damage and range. Basically, you're a one-shot wonder. Does this make you a gimp?

No. In the original system, another person could easily buid or buy a power that was equally as defensible. It could be buffed to withstand the same amount of damage.

If we continue with the strategy, by allowing more custimization, you are guaranteed to have your strengths in some areas, while have weaknesses in other areas. The more opportunities you have create an equal playing field.

And here's the catch: If I were to see your "hero" fight, I could literally take notes and specifically create a character designed to beat your character. For example, if you created a uber "dark blast", I could create a "light shield"...one specifically power against dark blasts.

So in other words, Rock > Scissors > Paper > Rock


Of course, as I premised my comments, this is all speculative on how much of the original system is incorporated into the MMO.

[Stormsun]

I honestly don't see the problem with allowing people to make a 'gimped' character. I enjoy the process of building a hero (never played Champion but I've run Aberrant games a number of times) and if someone wants to make Skidd (speedster with a force shield power that specialized in intercepting attacks aimed at his team mates, but mostly useless offensively) or Mr. Special Effects (any character with lots of powers that look cool when running but don't actually do much) then they should be able to ideally. If there is some skill involved then so much the better.

I'm hoping to see a much more nuanced style of play, hopefully allowing people to customize their power set to their play style. For instance, I know a number of people that love the Controller archetype in CoH but are insanely frustrated by the lack of viable offensive powers. (my Earth/Storm controller is essentially worthless without a group to actually damage the paralzed/frozen/blinded/flailing mob he's herded into a corner for instance) I'd much rather see people picking their allies and teammates based on what fits their play style and needs best, rather than just looking for a generic archetype.

[TheMystic]

A system I was thinking of would be one where powers are divided by type. Like range attack, melee attack, buff/debuff, control, defense, etc. The more powers you have of that type, the stronger those kinds of powers are. This would let you specialize in aspects and basically make your own class. Looking at CoH archetypes, for example, a scrapper would be about 65% melee, 35% defense. A tanker, probably 70% defense, 30% melee. Defender 70% buff/debuff, 30% ranged. Controller 60% control, 40% buff. But anyway, the system would allow you to venture into the different types. Basically if you wanted to specialize in one thing you could, and if you want to be a jack of trades, master of none you could.

Eh just one idea. I thought it made logical sense as when you are more experienced in a type, obviously you will be better at it.

[Wyrm_Ouroboros]

Thus where class-based systems break down. Interestingly enough, the HERO system is quite easily -- I might even say highly -- translateable into computer programs. There are already multiple-user games (MUD, MUSH, MUCK, etc) that utilize the HERO system; it'd be interesting/fun to see a MMORPG that managed to put it entirely (or almost entirely) into action. Alas, that won't be this one; after all, how would they manage a variable power pool? ;)

[Stormsun]

Thus where class-based systems break down. Interestingly enough, the HERO system is quite easily -- I might even say highly -- translateable into computer programs. There are already multiple-user games (MUD, MUSH, MUCK, etc) that utilize the HERO system; it'd be interesting/fun to see a MMORPG that managed to put it entirely (or almost entirely) into action. Alas, that won't be this one; after all, how would they manage a variable power pool? ;)

A config palette with sliders, controlling how much of the available 'energy' in your pool was dedicated to which sub-power at any given time. You'd probably want to set up some kind of 'favorites' macro, so people could hotkey their more common settings, but I'd think it would be pretty easy to implement.

[nrrrdlover]

I think they could get by with suggested builds as options, similar to how the neverwinter advancement system works. However, I also think that with CoH they underestimated the comprehension level of the customers whn it made the decision to dumb things down and limit our choices. Add in the possibility of respecs, and even making a bad choice isn't altogether permanent.

So yeah, a couple of buttons like 'build to template' and 'suggest power selection' would be plenty helpful without being overly limiting.

I've worked in game development (though as a marketing lackey) and have seen what happens in usability testing when you have open-ended systems like this. People do get confused. Not everyone is as smart as we are :D

It important to remember that even when the game is in full swing the population of these forums will represent less than 10% of the entire community. We are the power users and early adopters. Though we are important to generate buzz for a game release we are second fiddle to the casual gamer.

It is in the developer's best interest to appeal to a broad audience and though they may have high aspirations now, by the time they have their first usability trials they're likely to trim back a great deal of the complexity.

That's just the way MMOs are made since the success of (Wi)th (o)ut (W)ork

Despite that, this game shows great promise. The Champions mythology is rich and varied. Lots to work with. Also CoH is the best balanced MMO I have ever played in my life (and I have played a bunch) so I have a great deal of faith that the lessons learned there will be a boon to Champions development.

Now all we have to do is keep Sony from buying out Cryptic.

And? I don't see how that's a bad thing provided they break the holy trinity mentality. Getting pretty tired of being only good at one single thing.

That would be great...but....people won't get it. Early on, Lord of the Rings Online made an attempt to blur the lines between different roles and add flexibility (not remove, just muddle). The result was a general backlash from the user base because they were confused as to what they were supposed to be good at. Result: LOTRO has just finished a series of patches that were designed to clearly define primary and secondary roles.

What if they do a tree based system where you have basic attacks that everyone will have at first (or there coulld be like 4 starting areas that you can choose from) and that stems out in a logical fashion, yet still allows alot of freedom in what pwoers you want. Because the problem i can see, is the lack of 'structure' in a build that would perform very well eg. in CoH you could take energy transfer, aim, build up, firey embrace, bitter ice blast, dull pain, hibernate, blaze...in other words builds that wouldn't be plausible in terms of concept.

A lesson I learned from playing Champions : ALL BUILDS ARE PLAUSIBLE IN TERMS OF CONCEPT

With enough imagination you could make ANYTHING work. If the costume and bio options are anything like CoH it will be no sweat.

Can we say "FrostFire"?

[ErgonomicCat]

I wonder if there will be adjustments to the pool sizes.

I worry about it too - on the "once you've done stuff you get stuff" front that DDO is using, it would be easy to see a model that increases the size of your initial point pool for each capped character, or the like.

I don't really like that idea much.

[ug820]

Yeah i hope they dont dumb it down like they did for CoH. We are complex players wanting a complex game. Also every power does something and you still have your standard attack button to build up your power bar (so they say from the article) so I would say it would be hard to gimp yourself. Also the choice to gimp yourself should be are choice to. The point buy system from champions is really good and usually people of the same point level are almost the same in power.

[Mercator]

Were this a new game from a new company with new people, sure, I'd be a skeptic. But this is Cryptic. Who after years of work, reading forums, watching "Please add this" lists and supporting a game many of us tried or played, have no doubt got themselves a small library of things "that need to be done". Such as power customization, which they've acknowledged in their Features about being a reality.

All in all I expect and believe that we'll see Champions as the successor to CoX in terms of flexibility and customization. The game we all saw CoX becoming.

That they are acknowledging power customization or "Your powers on your terms" implies they'll let us build a gimp at our own risk.

Who's to say a character with all defense is bad? Specially if he has a friend who's all offense. What need is there for a travel power when your buddy has a group travel? Gimp is perspective, I figure if you spent all the points alloted to you, you'd be diverse and flexible. Gimping yourself would be like not spending those points. And that's just silly.

[Fraxture]

This from the land of Hero...

http://www.herogames.com/home.htm;jsessionid=a0UUfi-RJ_u-

The basics of the deal are this. Cryptic has bought the Champions and Dark Champions intellectual property from us — the characters, places, events, and so on — and licensed back to us the right to produce Champions RPG books. Cryptic has not bought the HERO System rules, and the Champions Online MMO will not use the HERO System rules for character creation or anything else (though it may use a lot of HERO System terminology).
You can read more official information, including the press release, on the “Champions Online MMO” forum of our Discussion Boards. The first post on that board includes a link to the new webpage for the MMO.

We hope all you HERO/Champions fans out there are as excited as we are about this, and we look forward to seeing you in the world of Champions Online!

[ErgonomicCat]

I definitely will be a challenge.

Not only will they need to balance the powers and the their point costs, they will also need to balance the actual content of the game so that powers and abilities have a use.

Say theres a Super strength power and a Super security expert power. Super strength ups your melee damage, increases the range and size of thing you can throw and lets you rip open locked doors. Security expert lets you pick locks, hack into computer systems where you can get info like mission maps, disable traps, remotely open doors, reprogramme turrets and robots to fight on your side and various other cool stuff.

Both very useful. But, if only every 50th mission, say, has anything in it that the Security power can be used on, whereas they all have people to be punched in them, then suddenly superstrength is much, much better.

I don't envy them the task of balancing all this, and I am really looking forward to seeing what they come up with!

I hate to keep doing this, but I'm an mmo junkie.

Matrix Online.

They had a number of very cool trees that focused specifically on things like this - better mission maps. Disguises. Stealth play. Hacking the world.

And it turned out that 99% of the time, you were better off just loading the full combat loadout, and kicking stuff to death. I would love to see Cryptic fix that. Make a security specialist that is useful. Games like Deus Ex did it - you could maximize your security/hacking skills, and just let the game kill stuff for you. Very very nice.

[ErgonomicCat]

Were this a new game from a new company with new people, sure, I'd be a skeptic. But this is Cryptic. Who after years of work, reading forums, watching "Please add this" lists and supporting a game many of us tried or played, have no doubt got themselves a small library of things "that need to be done". Such as power customization, which they've acknowledged in their Features about being a reality.

All in all I expect and believe that we'll see Champions as the successor to CoX in terms of flexibility and customization. The game we all saw CoX becoming.

That they are acknowledging power customization or "Your powers on your terms" implies they'll let us build a gimp at our own risk.

Who's to say a character with all defense is bad? Specially if he has a friend who's all offense. What need is there for a travel power when your buddy has a group travel? Gimp is perspective, I figure if you spent all the points alloted to you, you'd be diverse and flexible. Gimping yourself would be like not spending those points. And that's just silly.

CF the influx of "superteams" back a while ago. Teams that had individual members that were sub-par (You took group flight, tactics and grant invis? Huh?) but when run together were fairly frickin' uber....

[Mr.Blok]

What about those of us without friends :(

[RandomCitizenX]

The way I see it someone having a "gimp" character is irrelevant as long as they are having fun. Same goes with tank-mages as long as they don't detract another players fun with the character. You can have your big bad super man who I could never hope to beat with my pulp gun slinger as long as you don't kill steal/grief it is all good.

[TheDigitalDiamond]

PowerHelm raises and incredably important question and I commend his ability to reach back half a decade+ for information regarding original intentions & how that went sour. I personally found almost every single time I leveld in CoX to be excruciating because I was forced to pick amongst things I thought had no bearing on my character's personality whatsoever. I was there to make heroes and villains, not compete in a twinking war.

Thank you TerraDraconis for bringing up possible insight as to what current intentions are. Point buy is the way to go with this. As a former writer with TSR/WoTC, I still find myself most comfortable leaning towards GURPS to make characters with a real feel and background, and then basically freeform the gameplay. Point is, I need to make precisely the character I have in mind to feel satisfied and motivated to play it. I am notorious in CoX for having 3-5 secondary power pools lol. I'm also known for having unleveled levels stacked up because rather than choose something I don't like/want, I simply refused to level. I was one of the first level 50 villains & the character still reads as 48 or 49 because I couldn't decide which way to suck and be unoriginal based on the options I was given ;)

[Stormbringer]

if the game has a solid tutorial, optional templates for character creation and is generous about respecs, i don't think the "i-made-a-gimp" problem will be too serious.

as far as the dreaded "tankmage," it seems reasonble that devs could work out certain limitations to minimialize the impact of such characters. scaling point costs for similar powers, an anti-stacking policy or well-balanced game design can all help mitigate this problem.

[TerraDraconis]

I'm also going to guess that they will be more free with respec's this time around. So even if you do get out of the gate gimped you can fix yourself. ... Just reach down with that knife and do it.

[Mercator]

If they hold true to some basic comic ideals, respecs aren't entirely out of the question. There are a number of cases in Marvel alone regarding power loss or gain, about abilities changing or going away.

And that's really what respecs wind up being. A chance to redo things. What I want to see is a near-complete overhaul. Not just selecting which power at which level, but a chance to reselect power trees. Brop blasts for kicks, for example. Or lose force-fields and gain Invulnerability. A more encompassing vision of the loss-gain events noted in the comics.

And for the love of pete, some original respec missions. Not just different goons in the same place doing the same thing. Perhaps an Arch Villain in the mix, truly threatening your character.

[TheDigitalDiamond]

I'm also going to guess that they will be more free with respec's this time around. So even if you do get out of the gate gimped you can fix yourself. ... Just reach down with that knife and do it.

****ed well better. Respecs for a game like this, if done City of X style, should've been given like every other level. Perhaps even including origins etc to rebuild a character. You have no idea how many players only have and will only have one single character and when they reach a deadend, they unsubscribe instead of diversifying into alts and starting all over again. I watched one of my brothers do it repeatedly.

[Pyrceval]

I say...let us make gimps. I was one of those the followed CoH's development for many years prior to its release as well...I remember the video of character creation that showed it freeform in its original iteration prior to the archetype bs. I logged on to CoH the first time, the night it went live, at exactly 12:01, right is opened...I played that night into like 8 am or something and played for years. Still, I longed for the free form power choices.

I am very excited, and hopeful, that Champions will offer what they claim at this point it will. Customization of powers, free form power choices and the ability to be a 'gimp' if I so choose. The points system sounds like the way to go for me as well. Use points to purchase powers and also to increase the abilities of already existing powers. Using this method, you'd really only need relatively low number of 'basic' powers and then you could customize all you want using your point. For instance, saw you want a 'ice shield'...you would pick something like 'defense field' then pump points into the 'def. vs ice and cold' slot...bam, ice shield. With the possibility of character drawbacks, you could even make it weaker against fire than physical and get extra points to put into def vs ice.

I say bring on the gimps and the tank mages!

[Rivalor]

Why prevent gimps ??!?!?

I want freedom to make what I want. I want when I team up with people to not be sure how powerful they are unless I know them.

Everyone does NOT need to be the same power level....there is no freedom in that.

[DestinationX]

As long as I can throw balls of energy, I'm golden :D

But I am curious to see what powers will be avaliable, and how to obtain them in several months between now, and release.

~ Destination X ~

[Sphere]

I dont understand people who are against GIMPs or the TANKMAGEs, let me gimp myself and let the TANKMAGEs be uber, what do I care.

I have to guess the people who are againt the TANKMAGEs are the PVPers who want their GIMPs to be able to beat up the TANKMAGEs.

I already hear someone screaming ... "Thats not fair!" *sigh

[Islington]

I think it makes perfect sense to allow as much freedom as possible with possibilty of cheap respec. There are several different ways of playing. Maybe you like the powers you have. Sure you're gimped, but so what? As long as a player is having fun, I see no problem with that. If someone wants to powerlevel and get the best of the best then by all means, do so. And maybe I was intending to go with a certain power set, and I just really don't like the way my character functions, then I can respec and change my powers and pick ones that better suit my style of play, without having to completely start over. Seems fine to me.

[Greyhawke]

I agree with the thought that we should be allowed to make gimped characters. In some cases, people will actually want to, as it fits concept and they know they'll have a team of friends that will be there for them if needed.

[Godling]

:DThus where class-based systems break down. Interestingly enough, the HERO system is quite easily -- I might even say highly -- translateable into computer programs. There are already multiple-user games (MUD, MUSH, MUCK, etc) that utilize the HERO system; it'd be interesting/fun to see a MMORPG that managed to put it entirely (or almost entirely) into action. Alas, that won't be this one; after all, how would they manage a variable power pool? ;)

You coul allocate points to powers and build a macro for that power. If you were using a constant type power then switched you would turn that power off If you didnt have enough points. Or you could have a sliding configuration which reduced the power to a level that used whatever the diffrence was from the power you used. then if you wanted that constant power to be full value you would just reselct it and it would bump back up to its normal value.

If you followed and understand what i said you proablly used a VPP before. If you didnt you proablly never used a VPP before, or was not as proficient as using it as those that did. Or you could blame that white on black text thing again.:eek:

[Ephezius]

Were this a new game from a new company with new people, sure, I'd be a skeptic. But this is Cryptic. Who after years of work, reading forums, watching "Please add this" lists and supporting a game many of us tried or played, have no doubt got themselves a small library of things "that need to be done". Such as power customization, which they've acknowledged in their Features about being a reality.

All in all I expect and believe that we'll see Champions as the successor to CoX in terms of flexibility and customization. The game we all saw CoX becoming.

That they are acknowledging power customization or "Your powers on your terms" implies they'll let us build a gimp at our own risk.

Who's to say a character with all defense is bad? Specially if he has a friend who's all offense. What need is there for a travel power when your buddy has a group travel? Gimp is perspective, I figure if you spent all the points alloted to you, you'd be diverse and flexible. Gimping yourself would be like not spending those points. And that's just silly.


This is a really good point. If you want to build a gimp - go ahead. I think if you put enough tool tips and warnings, then even newbies will be okay.

[Incenjucar]

On gimps and respecs:

This is kind of left field, but I've been messing around with a little DS game lately called "Custom Robo: Arena."

The game is based around combining a robot body (call it a class) with a gun, bombs, boots, and mines.

What you select determines what you can do (specing). However, before you commit to a selection, you just hit the "R" button, and you do a test drive against a dummy opponent in a generic level. You can do this to test things before you even purchase them, all you want. Later in the game, you can also select levels and design opponents for specific challenges. It's all to ensure you don't have to go back and start over when you're actually fighting an opponent to advance.

It is an absolutely wonderful system that would be great for this kind of game.

You could even use it as a slow money sink if you had to, so that people didn't just play "Virtual Champions Online" instead of the actual game, but not as bad as an actual respec.

Something like that would give Champions a serious advantage compared to games where trying out new specs is a nightmare for casual players who don't want to have to grind or search the forums for flavor-of-the-month builds.

[Cmdr_Enfuego]

I'm guessing you'll be able to gimp yourself if you want to. In fact, look at CoH. It's completely possible to gimp yourself if you want to (MAN builds, MMs without pets, etc). What I expect is that they will attempt to educate you at the start. I'd also expect them to channel you into selecting some reasonably effective powers before letting you run free. Some things they might do are:

- Have relatively few powers when you start. Unlike like the Champions pnp, I would expect you wouldn't have most of your powers until you gain more levels.
- Restrict what powers you can take at the start. Limit them to what would fit your archtype/template
- Open other powers/power pools slowly as you gain levels. This prevents choice overload and also potentially limits you to powers that will make sure you have some default level of effectiveness.

Also, as others have mentioned: plenty of ways to earn respecs help to make sure people who do manage to gimp themselves can get themselves fixed.

Tankmages I assume they'll fix by point costs, and maybe reduced effectiveness for some attacks (i.e. if your a brick and can take a big ranged attack, it just won't do the same damage as it would in the hands of a cannon). And of course, lots and lots of testing.

[Celsia]

The weighted point system also means there can be implied sets or complimenary powers. If they want to encourage playes to take certian powers within a class they just need to make it cheep. Then even if the power does not seem to "fit" a class well, by making it cheep people will consider it anyway. Using a coh tank example. You could gimp yourself by only taking defense powers with very basic low level attacks. Thus the meat shield that never kills anything is born. BUT, the devs decide that the tanks will need to do some moderatge damage to make it viable, several moderate damage melee attacks will be made cheep (at the same point cost as defense powers). Thus people are gently lead to select appropriate powers and make viable builds.

In addition by making certian power combos very point expensive, you can avoid gimps as well as overpowered chars, just by making certian power combo prohibitive costwise.

[BellaStrega]

if the game has a solid tutorial, optional templates for character creation and is generous about respecs, i don't think the "i-made-a-gimp" problem will be too serious.

as far as the dreaded "tankmage," it seems reasonble that devs could work out certain limitations to minimialize the impact of such characters. scaling point costs for similar powers, an anti-stacking policy or well-balanced game design can all help mitigate this problem.

Yes, a solid character creation tutorial that guides you in creating a hero, and explaining why you want an attack, a defense, and so on, would be quite nice.

[nefiti]

if the game has a solid tutorial, optional templates for character creation and is generous about respecs, i don't think the "i-made-a-gimp" problem will be too serious.

as far as the dreaded "tankmage," it seems reasonble that devs could work out certain limitations to minimialize the impact of such characters. scaling point costs for similar powers, an anti-stacking policy or well-balanced game design can all help mitigate this problem.

Exactly offer templates and an optional tutorial and we should have the playerbase covered? I like the idea of freedom of choice including self-gimping, I'll learn. In fact I may even run some templates just for the hell of it - they would have training potential.

[Promstar]

They just need a good instructions manual / guide on their web, and if people dont't read the madn do not pick attacks / defenses its their own problem.

On the other hand maybe you want a gimped character for what ever reason.

On the other hand so what if yo ucna make a tnak mage , I am guessing most people play this type of game to make the character they have been thinking of for years and so build him along the lines of idea. if some folk want to build the most powerful character so be it. Though I do understand this does the ncause issues with content being too hard / too easy.

[molie3]

I'm gonna make a character soley for team defense. She will have forcefields and healing abilities, with hardly any offensive powers, this character will be soley for teamplay and maybe a few fun missions watching her trying to survive against her nemesis.

[nefiti]

They just need a good instructions manual / guide on their web, and if people dont't read the madn do not pick attacks / defenses its their own problem.

They should really put an online hero builder tool on their main site to help you plan the character in advance. With real numbers to give you and idea of what it'll be like.

[molie3]

They should really put an online hero builder tool on their main site to help you plan the character in advance. With real numbers to give you and idea of what it'll be like.

/signed :)

[Arkham]

the problem is they set the game design and then once it goes into beta people complain that its too hard and it should be made easier so you can pick it up easier. People don't want a learning curve they don't want to have to sit down and learn how to do something. I say screw those lazy people.

[Promstar]

the problem is they set the game design and then once it goes into beta people complain that its too hard and it should be made easier so you can pick it up easier. People don't want a learning curve they don't want to have to sit down and learn how to do something. I say screw those lazy people.

I think if they put a chracter designer online , then it would have to be towards end of beta and just before launch, as to prevent this.

I'd love to see what powers look like aswell before you pick them, i know CO is touted s having customizable powers so hopefully will see this. Kinda of like freedom force, where you can review powers before adding them

[john.doe]

Why prevent gimps ??!?!?

I want freedom to make what I want. I want when I team up with people to not be sure how powerful they are unless I know them.

Everyone does NOT need to be the same power level....there is no freedom in that.

QFE.

I highly doubt the Development Team would concern themselves with how "low-powered" people want to make their characters. Especially when they have a much bigger task in making sure no one combination of powers is a "God-mode", so to speak.

[Liliane]

Will you allow us to "gimp" ourselves?
Some players will allways gimp them self. In city of heroes I met level 20 blaster in same team. I was wondering why the blaster got killed so much all the time and could not do much. Then I looked the power selection, the blaster had taken 3 travel power and had only two first attack powers from the primary powers. I mean some people will gimp them self, as long players can choose something.

I don't think it's good thing to limit all players choises, because some players are just stupid.

[Armsman]

Yeah i hope they dont dumb it down like they did for CoH. We are complex players wanting a complex game. Also every power does something and you still have your standard attack button to build up your power bar (so they say from the article) so I would say it would be hard to gimp yourself. Also the choice to gimp yourself should be are choice to. The point buy system from champions is really good and usually people of the same point level are almost the same in power.

I agree that the point system in Chapions was amazing - and I still have 3 Charcters I alternate around as my friends and I still play. The thing that I WILL be curious about in the implememtaion is this:

Early on (from wheat I read in those forms whn it was under development) CoH WAS more heaviliy dased on the Chapions system - but the Team felt that it was too complex and the risk of a non-hardcore gamer/Champions rules raper (yes, I've done my share) could really gimp themselves, grt frustrated, and give up the game. They then took an extra year, and re-worked CoH in what it because (IMO - more like 'Villains & Vigilanties' in character development if any of you old timers remember that game system); thus the points setup was abandoned in favor of a simpler more structered power selection system for CoH.

I'm hoping that maybe they took what they learned from the CoH/CoX development, and 'dusted off' the original more 'Chapions' like character craetion concept - but time will tell. I do actually enjoy CoH with what it now has (the invention system helped a lot - as did their 'Flashback' and 'Police radio' setups); BUT I do hope that the version Cryptic is designing now is a bit more open ended in many respects beyond power customization as to colors, SFX, etc. (which is a good thing). Playability wise, I'd like to see more of a real variation in mission and in game story types (WoW for example has the same things but also have more enviromerntal variation that COH unfortunately lacks in that one warehouse/lab looks like every other warehouse/lab).

I'm an MMO vetran, and I do understand it's REALLY tough tomake some truely unique stuff - but I do hope that this time around, they'll add the ability to actually knock a Villian THROUGH a wall and follow him through it to continue a fight (or you, the Hero gets knocked through a wall). The ability to pick up and throw cars, lamp posts, etc; AND real multiple enviroments (Underwater where you actually can swim; outer space or alien worlds with diferent enviromental aspects; and all the 'danger' that entails if you don't have a power/gear needed to handle it, etc.

I wouldn't expect all these fully feshed out at launch - but if there was one element of CoH that drove my friends back to WoW it was the fact that the CoH enviroments were pretty much all the same; and just the text description that you were 'In space' or 'On an Alien planet' or 'Underwater' did grab them since in the end, we always ended up on the same instaced lab map with no windows, the same enviromental rules, etc.

So, I honestly hope some thought has been given this time around; and that the engine they are designing, developing and using is robust and expandable eough to handle this. I would just hate to see this as a 'CoH II' system; with just a point-based and more customizable power selection system - while the game enviroments thmselves have little to no actual variation.

I'm not trying to be negative as I would REALLY enjoy a more Champions like MMORPG because I do like to design and use superheroic characters; and still like comics (even at my age); but I think it's going to be pretty hard, and take a lot of work on the Devs part to make this game a more unique and different enough playing experience from what CoH has grown into over it's run.

But, that said, I really do want to see what they've come up with here.

[Pheonyx]

Tank-mages? pffft.

It's the Presence "engines" you need to worry about ;)

Phan

QFT

Presence Attacks can be some of the most wicked attacks in the HERO system, especially since many people didn't consider defenses against them. Have a hero with a 20 or 30d6 Presence Attack (with some modifiers) and walk into a room of minions (and even a supervillain or two), yell "Surrender or DIE!!", and watch the whole room surrender completely.

Ashes to ashes,
Pheonyx

[nefiti]

QFT

Presence Attacks can be some of the most wicked attacks in the HERO system, especially since many people didn't consider defenses against them. Have a hero with a 20 or 30d6 Presence Attack (with some modifiers) and walk into a room of minions (and even a supervillain or two), yell "Surrender or DIE!!", and watch the whole room surrender completely.

Ashes to ashes,
Pheonyx

Are they planning to use CO stats at all? I'd guess they'd 'forget' to add PRE if they do to prevent this.

[Rivalor]

There is way too much focus on not gimping or exactly balancing.

In comics everyone is NOT the same power.

Superman is cool

Nightwing is cool


Stick them in the same ring and guess who wins. :eek: ouch


If you want to really mess people up, you build a character to do that. If you want to focus on a more human guy who can do amazing things you build that.

If you do PvP realize what you created....this really should not be such a big deal.

I would rather have my say in what I make then lose all concept in my character for the sake of balance.

[Lunation]

How to prevent gimp builds in champions. Lesson 1 read the first 6 pages of the game manual when it comes out.

[Perfect_Pain]

Why do you care so much how other people build their characters. If people have concept heroes or villains and they are not up to your standards.. Then poo poo on you. Its not your decsion how people build their characters..

And poopoo to anyone who thinks they are right and everyone should abide by their way of building alts.

[Arkham]

Superman is cool


Yeah but lets hope no one can build a superhero as powerful as superman. Most overpowered superhero ever. Its not even fair.

[Lunation]

Yeah but lets hope no one can build a superhero as powerful as superman. Most overpowered superhero ever. Its not even fair.

Yet his main enemy is a bald guy with a rock.

[Molgon]

I'm sure this has been said but for what its worth:
When I first started reading about CoH I was very excited, I didn't play many MMO's and still don't last on them long. My friends and I all bought CoH but put it down after a month or two because what was promised, a system where you can choose how many powers vs. how strong of powers, and what powers to combine, was when they apparently redid the system. I would be very sad to see the power system be dumbed down just because some people can't figure out what to pick right away. I do know we are different than most people but all of my friends like to find the powers that are not obviously the most powerful or combinations that don't go together obviously and find ways to make them work. When it is possible there are amazing results.

So here's my plea: leave the system as described, let us gimp ourselves, we can make new characters. Let we who like the unsung powers shine in at least one MMO.

[oddthomas345]

I don't think you can make an game via the PnP rule set. I'm sure they will try to stick to some of the basics HOWEVER translating a book to the magic numbers behind the code could be harder than you think. Granted the books GIVE you the numbers but remember Champions uses a dice pool and TONS of checks. HOw do you mimic that via the backend?

I would like to know if Disadvantages are going to be implemented as well. Now that would be a twist.

they already said there will be disadvantages. :)

[nefiti]

I definitely will be a challenge.

Not only will they need to balance the powers and the their point costs, they will also need to balance the actual content of the game so that powers and abilities have a use.

Say theres a Super strength power and a Super security expert power. Super strength ups your melee damage, increases the range and size of thing you can throw and lets you rip open locked doors. Security expert lets you pick locks, hack into computer systems where you can get info like mission maps, disable traps, remotely open doors, reprogramme turrets and robots to fight on your side and various other cool stuff.

Both very useful. But, if only every 50th mission, say, has anything in it that the Security power can be used on, whereas they all have people to be punched in them, then suddenly superstrength is much, much better.

I don't envy them the task of balancing all this, and I am really looking forward to seeing what they come up with!

Yes but wouldn't it be a fantastic step forward to have the ability to get round missions in different ways. Stealth past most, if not all, of the mobs and use security systems to disable the device or get the required information.

I agree with you about the horror of balancing it but that's an issue of content which I hope they are thinking about seriously.

Superstrength was a major asset in Champions, in min/max terms, as it effectively gave you melee and ranged ability. Car tossing, good vanadalistic fun.:) Also basic physical defence.

[The_Burn]

Waaaay back in the day of CoH development in 2001/2002 that game was designed so that you picked an Origin and that affected the number of powers you could choose.

Tech for example could choose 5 powers (lets say 2 types of blasts and 3 others are what I choose) but they'd each be weaker than say the Natural with it's 3 power choices (so same 2 blasts) held by someone with fewer choices in power would be more effective to balance out the lack of flexibility.

Cryptic promised the CoH community almost everything they're promising the Champions community. What I'm wondering is will this be just like CoH? Will you guys show us the ability to freely select our powers then go "Oops we'll have people too stupid to pick an attack AND a defense so lets make classes that force them to pick certain powers from a pre-selected pool" ala CoH, when the first build was scrapped after getting rave reviews from the community and E3 awards...

You say we can select most any power(s) we want.

What I wanna know is what's the catch?

Must pick one offensive and one defensive attack?

How are you preventing Jack's personal bane the tank-mage?

Will you allow us to "gimp" ourselves?

The answers to these questions are really what's gonna determine whether or not you basically get the entire CoH subscriber-base back along with those that left because of ATs and such back in '03/'04 before CoH even launched...

I hope this game does allow people to gimp their own selves. Or to make a combination that's just what the community would call uber. The idea of balance in MMOs has come to the point of being ridiculous. If they stick with the Champions creation system as best they can considering the media, the better. So what if your power is X-Ray vision and flight and the only way you can kill someone is by snickering at what they got hidden under their spandex.

[Vox]

Honestly, I would love to BE able to build a "gimped" character. Take, for instance, a Forcefielder a la Sue Storm. Give me the ability to take a couple hold/debuffs (opaque bubble around someone's head, blinding them; large bubble imprisoning them temporarily; maybe some bubbles around their hands preventing them from firing weapons and/or reducing the amount of damage done by H2H), some armor buffs (targettable on myself AND others, I *hated* that about CoX -- not being able to use my "good" shields on myself!), a wide-area forcebubble that isolates those inside from those outside (GREAT for splitting up large groups of enemies into manageable chunks...) and maybe one force-push power that does a nice knockdown or knockback and really minor damage. Unless I can customize a special effect onto a power, like a defensive shield that returns a portion of damage to attacker, I would have pretty much ZERO damage-output. But in a team situation, I'd be priceless -- reducing damage to the party, knocking some enemies out of commission and making others almost useless, bouncing baddies away from our high-damage dealers so they can do their job.. Granted it would make for a character that would be almost impossible to SOLO, but in a good supergroup or a bunch of good gamer buddies, you'd be in high demand. If you look at comics that focus on a superteam instead of individual heroes, you'll often notice many team members are kind of "gimpy" without the support of their teammates.

What I'd like to see during character creation is something like a bar graph, with lines for defensive ability, raw offense, speed, perception and what have you. As you add powers, the graph changes to show how the new power affects your overall ability as a character. So, I could add nothing but forcefield defensive powers, and my "defense" bar would be pushed to the limit of the graph, but my "offense" bar would be virtually non-existent. If I chose to add a slew of attack powers and no dodge or armor, I'd get a graph with a huge "offense" bar and a teensy "Defense" bar. Putting the info in a visual format would make it easy even for rank newbies to see when they begin to approach "gimp" territory. And for the people who don't bother to pay attention, maybe a last-chance warning when I try to finalize a "gimped" character: "WARNING! Your hero, Bubblehead, has extremely low offensive capabilities, and may not be suitable for solo play. Do you wish to continue with the specified powers?"

[BattleOfValmy]

So I've heard this game will heavily or at least somewhat take off the number system of the HERO 5th Edition is that correct?

I mean, could we start making a rough build of our characters now with that book??? If so...*dashes out to buy HERO 5th edition*

I already have! :)

Too bad my card shop didn't have it, so they had to order it and it will be here Tuesday at the least. Oh well, more time to write backstories for my characters :P

[BattleOfValmy]

That sounds like an extremely good idea, Vox, and I pray to God they use something like that in the final build.

[The_Burn]

How will the numbers crunch with the supposed arcade style game play tho? I mean if I pick up a car and throw it at someone (purly speculative), then will there we rolls or collision or some unphantomal combonation? In which on the topic of balancing and gimping.. How could you really tell in such a game? Maybe they're terrible at aiming and they have unnaturally high bad luck and therefore are faulted right away. LoL Oi, the questions better left asked 18 months from now.

[nefiti]

Honestly, I would love to BE able to build a "gimped" character. Take, for instance, a Forcefielder a la Sue Storm. Give me the ability to take a couple hold/debuffs (opaque bubble around someone's head, blinding them; large bubble imprisoning them temporarily; maybe some bubbles around their hands preventing them from firing weapons and/or reducing the amount of damage done by H2H), some armor buffs (targettable on myself AND others, I *hated* that about CoX -- not being able to use my "good" shields on myself!), a wide-area forcebubble that isolates those inside from those outside (GREAT for splitting up large groups of enemies into manageable chunks...) and maybe one force-push power that does a nice knockdown or knockback and really minor damage. Unless I can customize a special effect onto a power, like a defensive shield that returns a portion of damage to attacker, I would have pretty much ZERO damage-output. But in a team situation, I'd be priceless -- reducing damage to the party, knocking some enemies out of commission and making others almost useless, bouncing baddies away from our high-damage dealers so they can do their job.. Granted it would make for a character that would be almost impossible to SOLO, but in a good supergroup or a bunch of good gamer buddies, you'd be in high demand. If you look at comics that focus on a superteam instead of individual heroes, you'll often notice many team members are kind of "gimpy" without the support of their teammates.

What I'd like to see during character creation is something like a bar graph, with lines for defensive ability, raw offense, speed, perception and what have you. As you add powers, the graph changes to show how the new power affects your overall ability as a character. So, I could add nothing but forcefield defensive powers, and my "defense" bar would be pushed to the limit of the graph, but my "offense" bar would be virtually non-existent. If I chose to add a slew of attack powers and no dodge or armor, I'd get a graph with a huge "offense" bar and a teensy "Defense" bar. Putting the info in a visual format would make it easy even for rank newbies to see when they begin to approach "gimp" territory. And for the people who don't bother to pay attention, maybe a last-chance warning when I try to finalize a "gimped" character: "WARNING! Your hero, Bubblehead, has extremely low offensive capabilities, and may not be suitable for solo play. Do you wish to continue with the specified powers?"

Exactly one players gimped is another teams de/buffmeister. I'll say it again there should be a hero builder tool on the main game site - with graphs/real numbers to give us an idea of what we can build.

[Vulcanis]

They've already said they want to have such a tool available, and if you look on the Cryptic site they are hiring an web programmer - so they either want to get that going or be developing some kind of system like WoW armory / Station players.

[Pheonyx]

Are they planning to use CO stats at all? I'd guess they'd 'forget' to add PRE if they do to prevent this.

Of course they are going to use Champions Online stats since otherwise this game wouldn't BE Champions Online :p

Seriously, I think you meant the HERO tabletop system... and while it will be a heavy influence and several terms and conventions will be there, it will be it's own system. I hope that they do something like Presence in the game code, since those abilities make great control-type characters and useful to a good many teams. Although it may not be as extreme as my example, it would probably work in such a way as the more points you sink into Presence attack (with a power effect chosen at start like sleep or fear), the longer the duration of the affected mobs; 10 points in a base version might give five seconds effect on one or two NPCs, where when you get into a 40-50 point investment, a group of 20 are affected for a full 60 seconds, and the effect is always broken if they are attacked, much like sleep and fear effects break when the affected are attacked in CoH/V.

Just a couple thoughts on that.

Ashes to ashes,
Pheonyx