Making SuperHeroes feel Super

[syhrd]

Hey there,
I've been a member of CoH community since 2002 and have maintained an active account throughout CoH/CoV life time. However I am not a regular player, I'd like to be as I've been a comic book nerd since the womb but the gameplay I felt let me down. My queries with Champions online are these;

1. How are you goin to make the powers feel powerful. CoH suffered from the problem that everypower was just a different glowing kinda light. You never felt like a total badass. Especially when signature superhero powers like Super Strength just made big orange bubbles and push characters pack 5 meters without scratching them. Also interms of scaling, how are you goin to make your 50th level power make your 1st level power look like a *****? It'd be nice, for instance, to see your 1st level power be something like a batarang, and your 50th level power be a laser from space that can level a city block, literally.

2. To follow on from one, another thing in CoH that i felt was lacking (though was eventually put in) was the destruction of scenery. Since most heroes across the genre win by "using their head", which usually boils down to "hitting them with something in the scenery", will Champions incorporate this kind of action in their action based fighting? It'd be cool for instance to suprise a group of thuggers with a car to the face.

3. Finally onto the enemies themselves. MMO's where the promise of online worlds to explore but seem to have developed into npc kioskes. Will champions NPCs be active? In that they live day to day, they rob stuff, so that heroes will actually have to track down crimes and can therefore have active missions. I.e finding a crime in progress activates the mission related to it, but no guarentee turning up their later would produce the same crime? This would allow for the inclusion of powers like xray vision and super hearing as these would be your minimap alert tools?

4. Lastly in regard to missions. In CoH the time when everyone rallys back to the game are when the big events go down which are awesome. Is Champions going to include things like this? Will there be constant zone events, and live action worlds rather then static mission markers?

Anyone who can shed light on these possibilities would be much appreciated, know it's abit early to be making demands of the game, but if it's going to be a next-gen MMO i'd like to see some next gen features :cool:

Cheers

[Nexus]

I myself have the same concerns. I do not want to feel like a Sidekick when compared to a npc Hero or Villain. I also do not want to be made to team all the time. If at all possible, let me be a superhero who can hold my own and not be always need to find a team to take out a supervillan.

I know that it still a long way from completion so just wanted to put that out there

[Officer_Longarm]

1. Are you talking about power customization, or power effects (e.g., knockback, interacting with the enviroment). CO is boasting some pretty extensive power customization.

One thing I don't like about CoH is the tiered powers. I don't want 5 different kinds of Invulnerability powers that stack upon each other (or cancel the previous powers out). I would prefer to pick a Resist Damage power and be able to upgrade it as I advance so it mitigates more damage.

2. /signed

3. I would love to see more interactions with costumed villains rather than generic group members. It would also be nice to have more triggered/scripted encounters like bank robberies or hostage situations. It really depends on how Cryptic decides to design the gameworld. Some folks here think that everything will be instanced off of lobbies.

4. See 3.

[Nexus]

Also:



NO SHINNY CAVES!!!:mad:

also allow us to be a part of the npc super groups.

[Sylph_Knight]

I second on all accounts. Let Supers be Super!

[Delta]

I agree with you on all of these points, but I think it'll be hard for the guys and gals at Cryptic to make every single NPC in the game have roles. I think the more realistic option is to have certain NPCs come into play nearby heroes.

Example:

Our hero Delta flys high above the city, but senses something is wrong when he sees a man in a trenchcoat trying to break into a nearby store. Delta flys down, the villain sees him. The villain breaks the window, and the store turns out to be a hunting shop! The villain picks up a nearby rifle, and starts firing on Delta. Then, Delta defeats him, XP, etc.

[Vext]

I have to say I agree and second this wholeheartily.
A character should still feel like they are heroes from the beginning even though they are more akin to the heroes defending "The City" in the tick universe. And as they level should reach true superheroic levels.
I also hope they have minor powers that cost less such as you suggest with super hearing/etc.

I also second Nexus' comments that soloing should be an option for pretty much the whole career of a hero. In fantasy genre it is understandable to have group mentality. There you have classes and need the support of the other classes (although I also think fantasy characters should have more customization but that's for another forum). In a superhero genre however you have precident of solo careers as well as it making logical sense.

Finally with regards to it being a "Next Gen MMO" I really hope they follow through on this. I followed CoH for a very log time during development and they had much the same goals. They intended total customizability as well. I have the highest hopes that Cryptic will be able to pull this off, but am trying to restrain my elation as I was a bit let down by CoH. Although don't get me wrong, I put many many hours into CoH and did enjoy the game thoroughly, but just from what they had planned/hoped for didn't meet what the final product was.

--Vext

[HeroJoe]

This has always been a concern of mine as well. When playing a super it is important to feel superlative. You need to feel like the best at what you do…or at least pretty good at it.

In CoH there are some things that feel super…

• The movement powers – First time you really fly, super leap, super speed, and to a lesser extent teleport, it feels really super. And the feeling doesn’t go completely away. You are doing something that no human can, and it is something that folks in comics can. It is pretty neat.
• Last Man Standing – usually this happens when running a tank, but when you face overwhelming odds and preserver until you prevail. Facing hordes of minions and bosses you stand tall and continue fighting as the villains (and maybe your team) goes down around you until you are left alone, wounded and exhausted, but victorious. That feels super.
• One-Shotting Baddies – Taking a minion down with single blast/blow feels great, especially if it is not a grey so far below you that you get no XP for it. One-punches are super.
• Giant Monsters – Hordes of heroes working together at full blast to save the City from the Invasion fleet/Ravening Monster/MotherShip etc feels super. That moment when the Monster –finally- falls and all the heroes stand around panting “Is it over?” is a comic book moment.
• Facing Super Villains – Superheroes fight Supervillains. Any cop/soldier/agent can take down mobsters and nazies. Fighting Named/Costumed/Unique super powered supervillains make me feel like a real superhero.

I hope CO can make the everyday experience more super for everyone. It should be a design goal.

I know I can’t start the game as Superman or Captain America. But I never want to feel like Rick Jones or Jimmy Olsen. I want to be a Superhero!

[Lasher]

I second on all accounts. Let Supers be Super!

Ooooo yea!

[Chaotik74]

COh already has this dude. they're called Enhancements. They've been there since beta.



1. Are you talking about power customization, or power effects (e.g., knockback, interacting with the enviroment). CO is boasting some pretty extensive power customization.

One thing I don't like about CoH is the tiered powers. I don't want 5 different kinds of Invulnerability powers that stack upon each other (or cancel the previous powers out). I would prefer to pick a Resist Damage power and be able to upgrade it as I advance so it mitigates more damage.

[Chaotik74]

Also:



NO SHINNY CAVES!!!:mad:

also allow us to be a part of the npc super groups.


Actually...that's not a bad idea. It's easy enough to have a Ranking system.....every MMORPG has one. why not have the TOP players get invitations actually JOIN the Champions, or U.N.T.I.L or whatnot?

[ErgonomicCat]

I myself have the same concerns. I do not want to feel like a Sidekick when compared to a npc Hero or Villain. I also do not want to be made to team all the time. If at all possible, let me be a superhero who can hold my own and not be always need to find a team to take out a supervillan.

I know that it still a long way from completion so just wanted to put that out there

See, I disagree with that.

I quit playing WoW when I realized that I was spending 95% of my time soloing. Because if I was gonna play a solo rpg, I had *significantly* better ones available than WoW. If I want to play a solo super heroes game, I've got plenty to pick from, they don't require a monthly fee, and they can do a lot more things with the story/character, since they don't have to worry about others.

I want a game that encourages grouping, makes grouping simple (CoH is still by *far* the best game I've played in terms of speed and fun of teaming), and rewards grouping. I don't want a required group, but I want to benefit from one. I don't want a set of roles that must be filled, I want a team that is more than the sum of its parts.

Again, I think CoH did a bang up job of that. You can really run a team of any 8 characters, and do okay. You have to change your strategy if you end up with 7 empathy defenders and a tank, but it can be done. I love that. I love that I can just shout "Level 31 blaster LFT" and get an invite, not "Level 31 blaster with AR/Dev power sets focused on AoE attacks and mob control looking to fill DPS or ranged position on team of 4-5 people, will be afk for an hour while waiting to get an invite."

I don't want to play FFXI again, but I don't want a solo focused MMO.

Discuss. ;)

[Chaotik74]

Gotta disagree with ErgonomicCat there. Finding a competant pick-up group has always been my bane...there's nothing more frustrating in CoH then starting a task force, then having a couple of players(usually key) drop out and leave the rest of you well and truely SCREWED. I prefer soloing. Heck, I'd like a system where you can recruit NPC heroes to work with you depending on your rep..kinda like how Captain America had the Falcon hanging around with him back in the day. Dude was a hero in his own right, but they made a good team. Or, on the DC sid eof things, the old school green lantern/green arrows combos. take your pick.

[Officer_Longarm]

COh already has this dude. they're called Enhancements. They've been there since beta.

BZZZZZT! Wrong answer, d00d. :D

Enhancements are not the same as putting points in a power to upgrade. First, Enhancements are pseudo-loot. You have to buy them or get them via a drop. Points are automatically awarded as you advance. Second, they decay. My powers don't lose effectiveness as I advance after I spent points on them. They may lose effectiveness in combat against more powerful adversaries, but that is a consequence of getting in over my head, not a result of leveling.

Finally, in CoH, my ability to resist damage is a combination of multiple powers. If I want optimum resistance to S/L damage as an Invul, I need RPD, TI, and UY (not to mention prolly taking Tough from the Fighting pool). That's three different powers, all of which need Enhancements. I want one resist S/L power that I can funnel points into as I see fit.

[Nexus]

See, I disagree with that.

I quit playing WoW when I realized that I was spending 95% of my time soloing. Because if I was gonna play a solo rpg, I had *significantly* better ones available than WoW. If I want to play a solo super heroes game, I've got plenty to pick from, they don't require a monthly fee, and they can do a lot more things with the story/character, since they don't have to worry about others.

I want a game that encourages grouping, makes grouping simple (CoH is still by *far* the best game I've played in terms of speed and fun of teaming), and rewards grouping. I don't want a required group, but I want to benefit from one. I don't want a set of roles that must be filled, I want a team that is more than the sum of its parts.

Again, I think CoH did a bang up job of that. You can really run a team of any 8 characters, and do okay. You have to change your strategy if you end up with 7 empathy defenders and a tank, but it can be done. I love that. I love that I can just shout "Level 31 blaster LFT" and get an invite, not "Level 31 blaster with AR/Dev power sets focused on AoE attacks and mob control looking to fill DPS or ranged position on team of 4-5 people, will be afk for an hour while waiting to get an invite."

I don't want to play FFXI again, but I don't want a solo focused MMO.

Discuss. ;)


To me this is the problem. I do not need, nor want, "encouragement" to team. I want to be a complete superhero. I do not want to just be a component in a collective. I want to be an individual. I hate the fact that because I am "X" i can't defeat "Y" because I don't have a " W" to team with me. I know that this will be a game for all who love comics, mmo's and rp's. I also know that teaming is a fun experience. Creating memories with friends and foes alike. However heroes don't need to team all the **** time. The Avengers, the Justice League, X-Men and ect, all as individuals, are forces to be reconed with. I don't want focus on just teaming or soloing. I want a focus of balance between both. To be able to stand on my own two feet when danger arisers. And when it is a city or global wide threat I can still stand on my own bu t with a group of individuals not a 8 man/woman hero

[Officer_Longarm]

Yeah, but in comics there are challenges that single heroes can't take on by themselves. I don't see why that shouldn't carry over into a superhero game. Should a hero be able to have a full and successful career solo? Yes. Should they be able to experience all the content solo? No.

[ErgonomicCat]

Gotta disagree with ErgonomicCat there. Finding a competant pick-up group has always been my bane...there's nothing more frustrating in CoH then starting a task force, then having a couple of players(usually key) drop out and leave the rest of you well and truely SCREWED. I prefer soloing. Heck, I'd like a system where you can recruit NPC heroes to work with you depending on your rep..kinda like how Captain America had the Falcon hanging around with him back in the day. Dude was a hero in his own right, but they made a good team. Or, on the DC sid eof things, the old school green lantern/green arrows combos. take your pick.

NPC Heroes would be pretty neat, actually - per Guild Wars.

Not as effective as a human player (in theory. ;) ), but good enough.

I also don't run Task Forces. I never had the time and gumption to commit to 3-6 hours of focused gaming. Usually the kids would wake up, or something would happen, or the wife would say "Isn't it bed time already?" or the like. ;)

I don't mind soloing. But I'd like the game to reward grouping. I like the Dungeons and Dragons Online idea, where you have multiple difficulties, from Solo to Super, and then some things that you can't do solo.

[Malaclypse]

To me this is the problem. I do not need, nor want, "encouragement" to team. I want to be a complete superhero. I do not want to just be a component in a collective. I want to be an individual. I hate the fact that because I am "X" i can't defeat "Y" because I don't have a " W" to team with me. I know that this will be a game for all who love comics, mmo's and rp's. I also know that teaming is a fun experience. Creating memories with friends and foes alike. However heroes don't need to team all the **** time. The Avengers, the Justice League, X-Men and ect, all as individuals, are forces to be reconed with. I don't want focus on just teaming or soloing. I want a focus of balance between both. To be able to stand on my own two feet when danger arisers. And when it is a city or global wide threat I can still stand on my own bu t with a group of individuals not a 8 man/woman hero

I do tend to agree. I don't mind being in a game that subtly encourages people to group, but I always have found myself resenting every time I find myself getting nudged, pushed or forced into it. Grouping with SG mates is fine and dandy, pickup groups are horrid even if you know how to make them work.

Grouping is fine, but LET ME CHOOSE. I have always thought that a game that isn't equally enjoyable grouping or solo is fundamentally a failure.

[Vox_Populi]

There's a catch-22 when trying to make players feel "super".

Weakening the enemies will make players feel tougher, but then the game is too easy. You don't feel too heroic when there's no challenge, and most will just get bored and find a new game.

The best way is to allow them to overcome huge challenges. However, huge challenges mean there's a good chance of defeat. Maybe several defeats. Then players start complaining they don't feel "super".

Another important aspect is the look of the enemies. Fighting an big evil robot and fighting a ten year-old girl will certainly have different effects on "feeling super", even if they have the exact same stats.

(Now, an evil-looking ten year-old girl on the other hand...)

[Firestrike]

For me, I always felt "super" in playing CoH. But I've always been more of a fan of the weaker heroes when solo, like various X-Men, and not the likes of Superman or other powerhouses. I was using powers ordinary people couldn't use, which to me is what "super" is.

However, I would like to see some more emphasis on the "hero" part of superhero, which is something I feel is lacking in CoH sometimes. This would involve stuff like saving people, stopping heists, preventing crashes/disasters This would also partially go hand-in-hand with the whole being able to defeat archvillains on your own. I agree that, in most cases, we should be able to, although it should still be difficult. However, there are always cases where the opponent or opponents are too much for just one hero to thwart as otherwise there really wouldn't be a reason other than plot for superhero team-ups. Someone like Doctor Destroyer on the front page seems like he would be a very, very difficult villain to take down on your own.

There really needs to be a fine balance in what will be soloable and what will be team content. I also agree with the sentiment that we should be a team of individuals, but there should also be the capability to make a character who is team-reliant if you want. They exist in comic books (characters whose abilities are suited more to support than anything else), so players should be able to make them here if they so choose.

[Graphite]

I was so disappointed in CohLand when fire preventive missions finally happened and we couldn't go into the building to save people. Likewise there is no real danger to the people who need rescuing... they don't even have health bars! Please focus more on saving citzens and protecting the world, not beating up the baddies. The only times I ever felt "Heroic" was in launch when I would Patrol the streets and later with Safeguard misisons. Seriously, CoV and CoH feel no different outside of flavor "story" text.

[HeroJoe]

I agree with you. The fire prevention missions were an interesting idea. But when my ice or fire characters couldn't use their powers on the flames and had to play fire extinguisher man, just like my gun bunny or illusionist, I was disappointed.

And saving citizens in the street was fun at first until I realized they were tougher than I was. Coming across the occasional battle between bad guys and cops in CoH is great. I can help them out. And if I choose not to, or don’t do it fast enough, the cops might actually get defeated. It would be great if they would do the same for me sometime when I am in over my head. Actual interaction with the environment and NPCs is great for feeling super.

Conversely I hate having to pass by all the grey muggings. It feels very non-heroic to say "I, UberMan, can't be bothered to save that citizen from the lowly mugger, but I am sure The CrimsonNeopyte will be along momentarily to help her out." If I do stop to foil all the grey muggings in AP then I never manage to get to my L37 mission door. Either choice feels the opposite of heroic.

[Aceldama]

"Let the Supers be Super"

/signed

I want to SAVE people. Scores of them.

Not some fortune teller who didn't have the clairvoyance to forsee that she'd be kidnapped in the first place.

[Xiayose]

Conversely I hate having to pass by all the grey muggings. It feels very non-heroic to say "I, UberMan, can't be bothered to save that citizen from the lowly mugger, but I am sure The CrimsonNeopyte will be along momentarily to help her out." If I do stop to foil all the grey muggings in AP then I never manage to get to my L37 mission door. Either choice feels the opposite of heroic.

I feel that if the missions were made to feel like they were really important then it wouldn't bother me about having to ignore a few muggings along the way to it. In the comic Astro City there is a great scene where two of the major superheroes are talking about how they prioritize who to save. That same choice could be represented somehow in CO: "I could save the old lady, but Dr. Destruction has a laser aimed at the city... hopefully someone can help the old lady." If there is a real feel of urgency, then it becomes an RP choice not an XP one.

[Pyrceval]

As a flyer in CoH, I managed to avoid that feeling often because, well, I was flying way up and all and didnt notice the little crimes :) But, in theory, I udnerstand what you are saying.

[Ashgan]

hmm I don't mind a challenge and still feel heroic but Impressive powers is what I'm looking for not something powerfull but just aweinspiring to look at weather it be creating massive walls of ice to making a huge explosion to oh heck just think of something that looked really cool in a comic book manga or tv show.

[Lionheart]

I often solo or duo (it's great having a wife that likes to play MMOs too :) ) and as others have said, the superhero genre is loaded with heroes who mostly run on their own. I think we should be able to solo all the way through if we want to.

The main problem I have with CoH (both solo and in most groups) is that you rarely fight a costumed villain. The thug leader looks just like the rest of the gang, with a few more powers added. It detracts from the "super" feeling.

I want some great one-on-one fights with costumed villains. That helps tremendously in adding that little spark of superness. The Archenemy feature mentioned for Champions intrigues me greatly.

That said, I have no problem at all with content that is geared toward groups. I think having large battles against ultra-powerful foes that require teams is awesome -- as long as it's not required to advance your character. I don't think all content has to be soloable, as long as there is enough good, exciting content for soloers as well. Provide content for both playstyles, just make sure it's comparable in "fun".

I've never been one to worry about having the best gear or the most XP or leveling quickly. I'm not a loot-centric player. To me, the reward is in the action and adventure, if it's well done.

[techogre]

So, at low levels, characters are Tick style superheroes, at mid levels, X-Men, and high level JLA. Sounds good to me. :D

[CaptainAtomyc]

This topic is something thats always bugged me about CoH. Where are the crashes and accidents? Falling helicopters, planes, trains, car out of control? Where are the people falling from buildings? Stuck in buildings on fire? There are a LOT of hero situations that just don't happen. Im hoping we see more of that here.

Also, the not feeling super. I think as a "street level" hero ive always felt super. Its my Super-strength tank that never felt super enough. You think Sup-strength... you think Superman. I never felt quite like that. How easy is that to put in a game with any kind of balance? It isnt. Still, its a staple of superhero games. So who knows I guess we'll see how Cryptic tackles that in this game. Im eager to check it out.

I LOVE the idea of the nemesis. Can't wait. Overall though im looking for a great superhero experience.

Cap

[Daemoro]

One thing that I always tell people about CoH was that from day one I DID feel super!

I felt super because I LOOKED super. I have no doubt that the character customization will trump their efforts in CoH.... it better be better or I will be disappointed. CoH STILL holds the title of best character customization and this game should raise the bar even higher. Make the other MMO's tremble in fear at CO's customizableness! Make the other games look like sidekicks in gimpsuits!

If you look super you can feel super just standing around doing nothing.

/em is giddy as a schoolgirl.

[Aceldama]

I see where you're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree.

What would make me feel super would be rescuing a falling plane and upon doing so, alighting on the ground to a crowd of civilian admirers.

Walking by a school of children and having them spazz out about how they want to be like you when they grow up.

Things of that nature. In CoH, when a group of heroes and I squash a giant monster, the city goes on as if it had no idea the thing was there in the first place. That doesn't feel super.

"You defeated a giant octopus in the harbor? There was a giant octopus there!? Holy crap!"

How about an instance or something where a giant monster attacks part of the city and the battle is lost when the monster causes a significant amount of collateral damage or when a certain amount of civilian lives are lost? This shifts the focus from mindlessly spamming attacks to coordinating with other heroes to tackle the situation. In addition to the damages, fires break out and spread if not controlled, causing more of said damage. When the monster is felled, mobs of civilians spawn with news vans and police cars and such spawn singing the praises of all heroes involved.

THAT would make me feel super.

Some crooks are knocking off a bank?

Isn't that what the FBI is for?

Oh, and while I'm ranting, NO MORE office buildings!

[CaptainAtomyc]

Yeah giant robots or something tearing through downtown would be awesome.

Acel your comments about the fortune teller cracked me up. :)

Cap

[HeroJoe]

This topic is something thats always bugged me about CoH. Where are the crashes and accidents? Falling helicopters, planes, trains, car out of control? Where are the people falling from buildings? Stuck in buildings on fire? There are a LOT of hero situations that just don't happen. Im hoping we see more of that here.


Agreed. Of course to do much of that I would need to be able to carry someone or something.

Also, the not feeling super. I think as a "street level" hero ive always felt super. Its my Super-strength tank that never felt super enough. You think Sup-strength... you think Superman. I never felt quite like that. How easy is that to put in a game with any kind of balance?

Super Strength is one of the most important powers to get right. It is pretty much (along with flight) THE genre power. If I have a character with super strength I want to feel STRONG. When I hit people I want them to notice it. I want to be able to juggle cars and pick up tanks. I, at least, want to be able to pick up a teammate and fly/leap/run with him/her to get to the next mission. Preferably I want to be able to rip a platform of concrete out of the road and carry my whole team on it. I want to be able to knock down doors and punch through walls. I want to be STRONG!

That is not the case in CoX. I have yet to be able to stand playing a SS character for any length of time. I just never feel strong. Taking 3-5 blows to knock down an even con minion makes me feel like a wuss, not a brick.

I really hope CO gets this one right.

[CaptainAtomyc]

Agreed. Of course to do much of that I would need to be able to carry someone or something.



Super Strength is one of the most important powers to get right. It is pretty much (along with flight) THE genre power. If I have a character with super strength I want to feel STRONG. When I hit people I want them to notice it. I want to be able to juggle cars and pick up tanks. I, at least, want to be able to pick up a teammate and fly/leap/run with him/her to get to the next mission. Preferably I want to be able to rip a platform of concrete out of the road and carry my whole team on it. I want o be able to knock down doors and punch trough walls. I want ot be STRONG!

That is not the case in CoX. I have yet to be able to stand playing a SS character for any length of time. I just never feel strong. Taking 3-5 blows to knock down an even con minion makes me feel like a wuss, not a brick.

I really hope CO gets this one right.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better. Granted im sure translation into an MMO world is challenging especially for this power, but im hoping something better can be done than has been in the past.

I like your sig Joe.

Cap

[The_Padre]

There's a catch-22 when trying to make players feel "super".

Weakening the enemies will make players feel tougher, but then the game is too easy. You don't feel too heroic when there's no challenge, and most will just get bored and find a new game.

The best way is to allow them to overcome huge challenges. However, huge challenges mean there's a good chance of defeat. Maybe several defeats. Then players start complaining they don't feel "super".

Another important aspect is the look of the enemies. Fighting an big evil robot and fighting a ten year-old girl will certainly have different effects on "feeling super", even if they have the exact same stats.

(Now, an evil-looking ten year-old girl on the other hand...)


I agree with this as well, there were too many times in CoX where we would end up fighting enemies like the Family at higher levels and to a certain degree some of the Malta guys looked spectacularly bland as well, now I don't like the Devouring Earth personally or even the Carnival of Shadows but at least there "seemed" to be something "super powered" about them.

[Aceldama]

Ugh. The Family.

An organization whose sole super power is the ability to be incredibly forgettable.

I want to fight a villain who knocks me through walls. I want to fight a villain with overwhelming power who puts up such a fantastic fight that I'm constantly losing hope throughout the battle and even when it's over, he still gets away instead of slumping over and fading out of existence only to be fought in a battle later with the same spam attacks until he's defeated tactics.

As I said before, distract us! Make us worry! Don't make constant beatings the only goal in a fight.

Lord of the Rings Online has done some amazing things with instances. Maybe as a mission goes on, the building or area you're in begins to burn to the ground and in the final epic fight, the villain sends you through walls or all of your constant attacks cause such structural damage that the place comes crashing down around your ears.

Epic.

That's the key to making villains detestable and heroes heroic.

When was the last time a Batman comic turned out like this:

"Joker. I knew it was you."
"What gave it away? Was it the hour you spent beating my mobs of stand-around, indistinguishable minions just to get to me?"

Then Batman punches him in the face until he stops moving.

Joker can't go toe-to-toe with Batman. That's why he's always got the fiendish schemes to level the playing field.

[CaptainAtomyc]

Ugh. The Family.

An organization whose sole super power is the ability to be incredibly forgettable.

I want to fight a villain who knocks me through walls. I want to fight a villain with overwhelming power who puts up such a fantastic fight that I'm constantly losing hope throughout the battle and even when it's over, he still gets away instead of slumping over and fading out of existence only to be fought in a battle later with the same spam attacks until he's defeated tactics.

As I said before, distract us! Make us worry! Don't make constant beatings the only goal in a fight.

Lord of the Rings Online has done some amazing things with instances. Maybe as a mission goes on, the building or area you're in begins to burn to the ground and in the final epic fight, the villain sends you through walls or all of your constant attacks cause such structural damage that the place comes crashing down around your ears.

Epic.

That's the key to making villains detestable and heroes heroic.

When was the last time a Batman comic turned out like this:

"Joker. I knew it was you."
"What gave it away? Was it the hour you spent beating my mobs of stand-around, indistinguishable minions just to get to me?"

Then Batman punches him in the face until he stops moving.

Joker can't go toe-to-toe with Batman. That's why he's always got the fiendish schemes to level the playing field.

Having the run of the mill villains (ala The Family, the Skulls, etc.) is fine but the supervillains themselves need to be amped up. I want Epic action too. I agree that LOTRO has done some great work with instances. Well done instances allow you to totally rip things up and immerse yourself without changing anyone elses experience.

I am also disappointed that the supervillain fights end up being just a whole team of 8 people standing around venting on a supervillain that seems to shrug it all off until they suddenly drop unconscious. There needs to be some better action. Destructible environs, more knockback!, and something less like cavemen fighting.

Not sure how MMO tech will allow for it but I hope Cryptic has some aces up the sleeves.

How cool would it be to fighting your way through thugs to question a higher level bad guy so that you can find the hidden lair or whatever villain and then fight his amped up elite thugs or whatever until a final epic conflict? I think CoH tries to do this with the story arcs, but the presentation just isn't there. Many don't even read the text.

Some of the best hero action ive had lately has been in Marvel Ultimate Alliance. I really like that game and im eager for a sequel. Some of the aspects of that game might do well in this environment.

Cap

[NeoSuplex]

Actually, I think I read that one. It was like 14 punches, right?

[Aceldama]

Actually, I think I read that one. It was like 14 punches, right?

Something like that.

After Joker fell over, Batman walked out of the building and then payed a visit to some chick in red shorts on her cell phone who tipped him off about the whole heist.

Then she had him beat up 10 more of Jokers thugs before having him run around the city to answer phones.

[Mechano_Flea]

One thing that never really worked for me with CoH that I hope Champions can remedy is power evolution. I always wanted to see you power change and evolve through time as you leveled up and gained a better understanding of them. You sort of get that with the generic new power every few levels, but at the end of the day Lightning Bolt at 50 is the same as Lighting Bolt at level 1. Wouldn't it be nice if you where able to create a forked bolt and hit two targets or something like that so you basic powers are still viable and useful other than just filler while you wait for your heavy hitters to come back up?

[CaptainAtomyc]

One thing that never really worked for me with CoH that I hope Champions can remedy is power evolution. I always wanted to see you power change and evolve through time as you leveled up and gained a better understanding of them. You sort of get that with the generic new power every few levels, but at the end of the day Lightning Bolt at 50 is the same as Lighting Bolt at level 1. Wouldn't it be nice if you where able to create a forked bolt and hit two targets or something like that so you basic powers are still viable and useful other than just filler while you wait for your heavy hitters to come back up?

That would be cool. Something akin to power feats from Marvel back in TSR days. You could try to use your power in new and different ways, likely to fail at first, but gradually become easier over time.

Cap

[Tiger]

I would like to feel super as well; however I want any Nerfs or Game Balancing to be done in beta or shortly there after not 2 or 3 years later. I have no problem with fixing what is broken and we should not cry about it when they do it in a timely manner. But when I punch a grey that sucker better fly a country mile if I am a Super Strength hero.

[DamienPhoenix]

Man you guys have some fantastic ideas that I would love to see in-game. I'm sure City of Heroes didn't turn out like they wanted it to, although it is a fantastic game, there is plenty of room for improvement. I would prefer an XP boost for teaming and certain missions that have to be done on teams. I hope they don't completely rip off Marvel Ultimate Alliance in the melee combat department. I feel that aspect of the game was severely lacking and I hope Champions doesn't "borrow" that element from the game.

[CaptainAtomyc]

Going along with the whole feeling super topic, another thing I forgot to mention was investigation. Id love to be able to investigate something. Pick up clues, try to think through things. Not just blast everything. Not sure how it could be implemented, not knowing the limits of the tech, but something more than a glowing box.

Cap

[Discord]

I see where you're coming from, but I don't necessarily agree.

What would make me feel super would be rescuing a falling plane and upon doing so, alighting on the ground to a crowd of civilian admirers.

Walking by a school of children and having them spazz out about how they want to be like you when they grow up.

How about an instance or something where a giant monster attacks part of the city and the battle is lost when the monster causes a significant amount of collateral damage or when a certain amount of civilian lives are lost? This shifts the focus from mindlessly spamming attacks to coordinating with other heroes to tackle the situation. In addition to the damages, fires break out and spread if not controlled, causing more of said damage. When the monster is felled, mobs of civilians spawn with news vans and police cars and such spawn singing the praises of all heroes involved.

THAT would make me feel super.

Some crooks are knocking off a bank?

Isn't that what the FBI is for?

Oh, and while I'm ranting, NO MORE office buildings!

Awesome ideas, Ace. I've some few things to add, so if you all would indulge me...

Aceldama's giant monster idea - basically a dynamic cause/effect (moster attacks and causes massive collateral damage if left unchecked) is a great concept, but how about letting players "aquire" the ire of NPC villians? And I'm not talking about a few random ambushes when leaving the mission door, ala CoX: i'm talking baited traps; sudden, brutal attacks on businesses or homes to draw out the said player while he just may be in the middle of some other sensitive/time critial mission (i.e. HeroX in the middle of a hostage situation when he gets a call on his comm-unit that Villian Vile is about to bomb a school if he doesn't go to destination X in Y minutes, etc). Not only would that add an element of extreme urgency, but it'd make me super - either resolving the situation myself or calling on my hero group for assistance.

Another thing that'd make me feel super would be a slight amendment to the "destructable environments" arguement: If I'm a badass superhero with unearthly strength, and I whale on a thug hard enough, he should go flying into a wall hard enough to leave a dent and/or stay there, or smash through several crates/doors from the force of it, or crater floors with my stomps. Energy/fire-slingers should be able to leave scorch-marks/melted spots from missed blasts (no more of this blast-misses-and-goes-off-in-a-improbable-angle BS, please. I'm looking at YOU CoH). Blade-users (mundane, energy, etc) could leave gouges and grooves in floors/walls/boxes. THIS way, if you say had to clear out a warehouse of thugs and a minor villian, someone could look at the collateral damage - the scorches and melted walls, the huge #$%&ing crater you left behind from choke-slamming some thug or the wholes in the walls in the shape of a man - and go:

"WOW! Somebody had a bad day."

To which I could reply *hands clapping the dirt off* "Everything here has been slagged, shattered, or smashed; my job is done here."

THAT makes me feel super.

[Aceldama]

Thanks for that, Discord. Great stuff.

You too, Cap.

I have a few things I'd like to add to both.

As far as investigation goes and how it would be implemented, why not rig it up like the point-and-click adventures of old? What I mean is instead of receiving a clue that says you've already figured it out or that you have to take to an NPC for analyzation, why not let the player work it out mentally?

Let's take that CoH mission with the Clockwork captive. You find a piece of metal with some numbers written on it. What is it? That's for you to find out. Head to a phone and dial the numbers. Run through streets and look for an address. Maybe they correspond to the letters of the alphabet.

Let the player figure it out based on the clues they have and when they do, unlock a mission that goes along with it. This instills a sense of accomplishment and also adds that sought-after "Super" feeling when you've completed the mystery.

As far as how you'd find clues, if the investigation thing were a skill, the higher you raise it, the more clues you "notice" at a crime scene or during a mission. You see a clue that someone with a low investigation skill doesn't.

I'd LOVE to see that.

As for the collateral damage, it should be over-the-top. Especially if it's in an instance. In the warehouse missions of CoH, how often have you wished that, having sent a villain careening through the air, he'd hit one of those storage racks and boxes would explode all over the place.

Super powers HAVE to feel super powered.

Travel powers as well.

I can't count the number of times I've wished that fly weren't eye-gougingly slow. Superman, Ironman, etc. All can fly at supersonic speed.

The Flash can run up walls and on top of water.

The Hulk smashes the environment and anything unfortunate enough to fall under his feet when he super jumps.

Essentially, it won't be the powers themselves that make us feel super. It'll be the cosmetics associated with them.

[justicefishy]

I mean, what I mostly just want is the destructive environments and non-invulnerable citizens. I want there to be an incentive to save people, even a level 50 sweeping down and stopping a level 1 mugger, cause they'll smack the civvies and "hurt them"

Feeling more "super" would be great, and most of the ideas above would help, but what I really want is just to feel "needed" by citizens that aren't just static constructs

[Kynlore]

One thing I don't like about CoH is the tiered powers. I don't want 5 different kinds of Invulnerability powers that stack upon each other (or cancel the previous powers out). I would prefer to pick a Resist Damage power and be able to upgrade it as I advance so it mitigates more damage.


If I understand you right, I'd like to see this too. I like the idea of having a power and the power itself upgrades over time, not having it replaced by another more powerful version of the same thing. I have having a ton of lower level abilities sitting around taking up space that aren't utilized because I'm using more powerful, upgraded versions.

[walkerBob]

I mean, what I mostly just want is the destructive environments and non-invulnerable citizens. I want there to be an incentive to save people, even a level 50 sweeping down and stopping a level 1 mugger, cause they'll smack the civvies and "hurt them"

Feeling more "super" would be great, and most of the ideas above would help, but what I really want is just to feel "needed" by citizens that aren't just static constructs

I'm with you there! Citizen hostages that actually die if the villain and henchmen aren't defeated in time will certainly add a new level of motivation for the players!

[CaptainAtomyc]

Thanks for that, Discord. Great stuff.

You too, Cap.

I have a few things I'd like to add to both.

As far as investigation goes and how it would be implemented, why not rig it up like the point-and-click adventures of old? What I mean is instead of receiving a clue that says you've already figured it out or that you have to take to an NPC for analyzation, why not let the player work it out mentally?

Let's take that CoH mission with the Clockwork captive. You find a piece of metal with some numbers written on it. What is it? That's for you to find out. Head to a phone and dial the numbers. Run through streets and look for an address. Maybe they correspond to the letters of the alphabet.

Let the player figure it out based on the clues they have and when they do, unlock a mission that goes along with it. This instills a sense of accomplishment and also adds that sought-after "Super" feeling when you've completed the mystery.

As far as how you'd find clues, if the investigation thing were a skill, the higher you raise it, the more clues you "notice" at a crime scene or during a mission. You see a clue that someone with a low investigation skill doesn't.

I'd LOVE to see that.

As for the collateral damage, it should be over-the-top. Especially if it's in an instance. In the warehouse missions of CoH, how often have you wished that, having sent a villain careening through the air, he'd hit one of those storage racks and boxes would explode all over the place.

Super powers HAVE to feel super powered.

Travel powers as well.

I can't count the number of times I've wished that fly weren't eye-gougingly slow. Superman, Ironman, etc. All can fly at supersonic speed.

The Flash can run up walls and on top of water.

The Hulk smashes the environment and anything unfortunate enough to fall under his feet when he super jumps.

Essentially, it won't be the powers themselves that make us feel super. It'll be the cosmetics associated with them.

Love it Acel. Great stuff!

Cap

[Aceldama]

If I understand you right, I'd like to see this too. I like the idea of having a power and the power itself upgrades over time, not having it replaced by another more powerful version of the same thing. I have having a ton of lower level abilities sitting around taking up space that aren't utilized because I'm using more powerful, upgraded versions.

In RF Online (I believe), each skill you have has a proficiency bar to go along with it. The more you use it, the more it levels up. Eventually, the visual effects, damage output, etc. begins to change.

Peter Parker didn't start out as an expert web-slinger. It was something he got better with the more he did it.

Why can't that apply to this game?

It takes time to master powers and I think that in an MMO, this could be represented extremely well.

Then again, I'm not sure how the Champions ruleset works and I'm sure the devs don't want to "color outside the lines", if you catch my meaning.

[dameon]

CO is going to be in the next wave of online gaming.

We, the players, need something.. more.
Too long the genre has been stagnant. CO is a perfect opportunity to do something new with the genre. I like that they're going with a more active combat system, but that's not enough.

What we need is a fully destructible world. Millennium City is a city of the future correct? I'm sure they have some futuristic technology to repair damage to buildings, streets, etc... I am talking about the actual game world that everyone can see. It would be nice if instancing was not even part of CO at all.

The damage should not last forever, possibly nano-bots or some other futuristic technology will come by a few minutes after a fight to begin repairing the damage. Also the repair costs for the damage should be taken out of your own pocket. Whoever the Hero is that got over zealous and decided to level a whole city block with their Super Strength should have to pay for the repairs. I think that this alone would deter people from running around destroying everything in sight. We are Heroes after all. :P

Edit: Something else that I would like to see, that is kind of tied to this, is Super Villains actually plotting things. A SV could attack one of the sky bridges and any Heroes in the area could get the alert that SV So and So is attacking the North Tower Sky Bridge! Then an alert would pop up on your map. Everyone rushes over there to see that one side is dangling off of the building and the SV is starting to damage the other side, if it falls it could kill hundreds of civilians (and seriously hurt your Hero reputation).

If the SV is thwarted then once he escapes from the maximum security super villain prison on the moon (and you know he will) he won't go right back to attacking the sky bridge again, no, it will be a different plot to destroy something. What I'm getting at is I would love to see the game be made up of 1 time only encounters involving Super Villains with severe outcomes win or lose.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

[glyphdoc]

One thing that NEVER got old for me in COH and made me feel pretty **** super was when I went up to a bunch of equal level baddies and (as a blaster) one shot all the minions and just leave the leaders standing. Now granted I couldn't do it to every group becasue of recharge but every time I did it I felt like a badass.

[Officer_Longarm]

In RF Online (I believe), each skill you have has a proficiency bar to go along with it. The more you use it, the more it levels up. Eventually, the visual effects, damage output, etc. begins to change.

Peter Parker didn't start out as an expert web-slinger. It was something he got better with the more he did it.

Why can't that apply to this game?

It takes time to master powers and I think that in an MMO, this could be represented extremely well.

Then again, I'm not sure how the Champions ruleset works and I'm sure the devs don't want to "color outside the lines", if you catch my meaning.

Using the Peter Parker example, in CoH, Spiderman would have 3 or four different web-shooter powers that had varying ranges, recharge and activation times, and endurance costs, all to represent his ability to immobilize or hold a villain or a gang with his webshooters. There would be some overlap/stacking/redundancy between those powers, but he'd have to take them all to truly be effective with his webshooters, possibly sacrificing the opportunity to choose another power (sorry, no spideysense for you; can't fit it into your build if you want an AoE hold).

I want one webshooter power that I can modify for range, damage, and secondary effects.

[alucard1]

Thanks for that, Discord. Great stuff.

You too, Cap.

I have a few things I'd like to add to both.

As far as investigation goes and how it would be implemented, why not rig it up like the point-and-click adventures of old? What I mean is instead of receiving a clue that says you've already figured it out or that you have to take to an NPC for analyzation, why not let the player work it out mentally?

Let's take that CoH mission with the Clockwork captive. You find a piece of metal with some numbers written on it. What is it? That's for you to find out. Head to a phone and dial the numbers. Run through streets and look for an address. Maybe they correspond to the letters of the alphabet.

Let the player figure it out based on the clues they have and when they do, unlock a mission that goes along with it. This instills a sense of accomplishment and also adds that sought-after "Super" feeling when you've completed the mystery.

As far as how you'd find clues, if the investigation thing were a skill, the higher you raise it, the more clues you "notice" at a crime scene or during a mission. You see a clue that someone with a low investigation skill doesn't.

I'd LOVE to see that.



First off.. I really want to say that I like the ideas your putting forth here. I agree, and I would truly LOVE for these to be included into the game they are making.

However, I am a 36 year old... rather intelligent individual, if i do say so myself. I am not the target audience of this game... and frankly... neither are the majority of the members here, IMO. The "target audience" is the average teen, that gets their rocks off by blasting away at anything and everything.. beating the sh*t outta anything and everything and gaining "levels" to get "to the end." As much as Jack says he's a big fan of the Champions PnP.. and as long as he's been playing, and wanting to recreate his experiences into a platform that we could all engage in... it's still a business. And a business is built to make money. A game with superheroes, is targeted at "kids" with there being a great bonus to those of us that still cling to our childhood, and attempt to maintain our "youth."

As much as I really like the idea of having to piece together little tid-bits of information to formulate a plan to get the bad guy... I also realize that much of that is so far above and beyond what your average "teen" is going to want to do to play Champions... or CoH for that matter.

Keep in mind that CoH is rated T for Teen... as I expect CO to be.

And, as a disclaimer... yes, I realize that not all teens are what I am making as an example here. I know there are kids out there than can out think a great deal of the adults I know... I just don't see them as being the ones that will pick up a copy of this game with the expectation of doing anything other than... "blowing sh*t up."

Peace

[Gerebrand]

- alucard1

I may be mistaken, but I think we are one of the target audiences. From what I remember, the 20 to 30ish age group is the majority of the MMO player base/buyers, or at least was. This number maybe true for PC software in general but I don't remember specifics.

[Aceldama]

Of course they're going to design the game to sell and appeal to the widest demographic they can.

It's the same problem that consistantly presents itself with movie adaptations of books. You've got to dumb-down the script to make it more commercial.

The key is to find a happy medium between consistancy and commercial.

[Discord]

Thanks for that, Discord. Great stuff.

You too, Cap.

I have a few things I'd like to add to both.

As far as investigation goes and how it would be implemented, why not rig it up like the point-and-click adventures of old? What I mean is instead of receiving a clue that says you've already figured it out or that you have to take to an NPC for analyzation, why not let the player work it out mentally?

Let's take that CoH mission with the Clockwork captive. You find a piece of metal with some numbers written on it. What is it? That's for you to find out. Head to a phone and dial the numbers. Run through streets and look for an address. Maybe they correspond to the letters of the alphabet.

Let the player figure it out based on the clues they have and when they do, unlock a mission that goes along with it. This instills a sense of accomplishment and also adds that sought-after "Super" feeling when you've completed the mystery.

As far as how you'd find clues, if the investigation thing were a skill, the higher you raise it, the more clues you "notice" at a crime scene or during a mission. You see a clue that someone with a low investigation skill doesn't.

I'd LOVE to see that.

As for the collateral damage, it should be over-the-top. Especially if it's in an instance. In the warehouse missions of CoH, how often have you wished that, having sent a villain careening through the air, he'd hit one of those storage racks and boxes would explode all over the place.

Super powers HAVE to feel super powered.

Travel powers as well.

I can't count the number of times I've wished that fly weren't eye-gougingly slow. Superman, Ironman, etc. All can fly at supersonic speed.

The Flash can run up walls and on top of water.

The Hulk smashes the environment and anything unfortunate enough to fall under his feet when he super jumps.

Essentially, it won't be the powers themselves that make us feel super. It'll be the cosmetics associated with them.

Thanks, Ace. And you bring up yet more good points; the Travel powers really DO need to be super. The one's in CoX are ok, but they aren't really what they could have been.

[Discord]

In RF Online (I believe), each skill you have has a proficiency bar to go along with it. The more you use it, the more it levels up. Eventually, the visual effects, damage output, etc. begins to change.

Peter Parker didn't start out as an expert web-slinger. It was something he got better with the more he did it.

Why can't that apply to this game?

It takes time to master powers and I think that in an MMO, this could be represented extremely well.

This has already been implimented in at least one other MMO that I can think of; Acclaim's 9Dragons - a kungfu action MMO. The more you use your kungfu, the more effective (dmg, buff, dmg res, etc) it is, and you can unlock extra attacks/animations in that particular style at certain skill levels.

[Sylph_Knight]

I myself have the same concerns. I do not want to feel like a Sidekick when compared to a npc Hero or Villain. I also do not want to be made to team all the time. If at all possible, let me be a superhero who can hold my own and not be always need to find a team to take out a supervillan.

I know that it still a long way from completion so just wanted to put that out there

The one thing that irked me the most in City of Heroes was that Players were often made to feel worthless in the game's first year, like we were children whose antics were mere child's play in the Freedom Phalanx's playground. Since Positron took the helm, the game has made the feeling of Players and Villains being peers towards their NPC allies rather than "sidekicks" more prevailant in City of Heroes.

Rule of thumb: Players HATE being second-class citizens against "veteran" NPC characters.
Second Rule of Thumb: Players LIKE feeling like equals towards established "veteran" NPC characters.

Most MMOs simply do not fathom this. I hope the main NPC Cast of Champions (and namely Defender / Doctor Destroyer), although having massive organizational and financial backing the player cannot match, will only represent the PENACLE of what the player will eventually become rather than scream "Haha! You'll never be as awesome as me!"

Positron and many of the other Devs played realistically-powered NPC characters during the End of Issue 10 beta in City of Heroes and fought alongside the players. The fact that they didn't show of made me feel both very grateful and proud, as it showed integrity on their part that they didn't want to trample on our show and we all had alot of fun.

The Statesman clobbering the Rikti Mothership thing years before, on the otherhand, did just the opposite. No NPC rolemodel should be so powerful that they make the players feel useless and ashamed like Statesman was.

I urged this in City of Heroes before the game even launched. I'm urging it again here.

[Sylph_Knight]

Yeah, but in comics there are challenges that single heroes can't take on by themselves. I don't see why that shouldn't carry over into a superhero game. Should a hero be able to have a full and successful career solo? Yes. Should they be able to experience all the content solo? No.

The challenges that multiple heroes should be "necessary" to face are large groups of Super Villains, Giant Monsters, Cosmic Threats (Rogue Comet needs to be destroyed or it will wreck into Generic City!), Natural Disasters (I'd LOVE to see some of these!), and Omnipotent Evils (or insanely powerful villains like Dr. Doom who have created or amassed so much firepower they can't be considered a single-target opponent to fight).

Read some of the Avengers series of comics. These are the types of threats I feel SHOULD justify team-ups.

Natural Disasters are a big thing. Sometimes the point of being a hero isn't "Winning" against anything, but Saving Lives. If your city got stuck in the middle of a hurricane, but you managed to save three people even though you couldn't stop the hurricane, you're still a hero.

I want to fight a villain who knocks me through walls.

Agreed. Difficult to put in, but having some walls be destructable would be nice. One of my favorite scenes in any battle I've seen is in the Guyver OAVs in Episode 4, when hes grappling with a Hyper Zoanoid that is literally pushing him back through wall after wall in a high school. I'd love to be able to do/recieve that kind of punishment.

FINAL EDIT:

One last thing - Multiple Ways through Missions.

Locked door?

Beat the tar out of the minions till one of them coughs up the keycard!!

Don't want to find the minion with the keycard? Break it down!!

Don't have the strength or firepower to go with brute force? Break into a ventalation shaft!!

Can phase through walls? Even better.

Also:

Break into high-rise building windows to enter certain mini-mission maps, like a stick-up or terrorist attack and skip straight to the ringleader.

Or break through walls to enter certain missions.

Multiple entrances to a mission with different starting points. If one way is a dead end (door locked) and you can't get around
it with your current powers, just go outside and try another entrance.

The game should be smart enough to evaluate if you or your allies have the ability to pull any of these off before generating them, though. That way it only gives you options that it knows you are capable of doing.

[syhrd]

I think that a true superhero MMO has to support both the spiderman style of going it along, and every now and then joining a team, as well as the xmen always moving in pack mentality. Mostly this is because some times i just want to play an awesome superhero game, and i don't wana have to deal with people or the chat box:P

Also in terms of "encouraging people to group" I support both the Guild War style NPC system, because that meant when you start playing was always in your control. But something I would like to see is multiple people being put no the same misson, so you sneak up to a bad guys hide out, fight your way through then find there is some other dude in there with you. As long as the area is still instanced and the game splits the xp pot between the two, then it would be kinda cool.

[syhrd]

In terms of making super heroes feel super something that I think needs changing is the "beat 10 thugs to find the base" style gameplay, it'd be cool if they created some information finding minigames. For instance you find the informant and he makes a break for it so you have to chase him down minigame. Or smack him around and ask the right questions minigame, something to give you experience that isn't just pumping fists into faces. Be nice to have to "use your head" for real

[Sylph_Knight]

In terms of making super heroes feel super something that I think needs changing is the "beat 10 thugs to find the base" style gameplay, it'd be cool if they created some information finding minigames. For instance you find the informant and he makes a break for it so you have to chase him down minigame. Or smack him around and ask the right questions minigame, something to give you experience that isn't just pumping fists into faces. Be nice to have to "use your head" for real

Oooh, nice. Mass Effect's conversation system hits a note here.

[Fobok]

For me, CoH really did get the heroic feeling down good in groups. The problem was, it didn't do the same thing in solo play. I really think LOTRO is a good example of how to balance solo and group play. There's incentive to group because of the story missions, but if you want to go on for an hour by yourself and don't want to find a group, or don't feel like playing the high-pace that groups seem to use going through missions, there's always stuff you can do solo and still feel like you accomplished something.

In CoH, if I didn't have time to group, or didn't feel like grouping, the heroic feeling wasn't there because there was nothing heroic to do solo.

[syhrd]

Oooh, nice. Mass Effect's conversation system hits a note here.
I don't know if people remember but in Balders Gate 2 you could pick the voice of your character, I really doubt that it's possible, but it would be cool to see those minigames/cutscenes where your character actually talks ala Mass Effect, you would only need say 5 male and 5 female voice actors to go over the same lines, but it would just make things a little more interesting. The problem I see is what happens in team cutscenes, the same voice is going to come up which will sound stupid, assigning roles in cutscenes is complicated also making sure each head can handle the words would be tough. Maybe just implement this system when your having Nemesis solo missions? Just make sure there is a "1. Call him a douche" option

[Revolution.X]

Honestly, I think that the combat system in itself will go a LONG way towards making us feel more heroic. I mean, actually having to throw punches and dodge laser blasts is alleviating some of the problems with CoX.

The tactical decisions (solo and in a team) will expand TREMENDOUSLY...

[Rex_Havoc]

I am also disappointed that the supervillain fights end up being just a whole team of 8 people standing around venting on a supervillain that seems to shrug it all off until they suddenly drop unconscious. There needs to be some better action. Destructible environs, more knockback!, and something less like cavemen fighting.

I agree. I detest the way that all named supervillains in CoX are these Uber-Gods that require a full team to take down. It makes me feel less Super that I can't take one down by myself. There are plenty of instances in comics of one-on-one battles between a superhero and a supervillain.

Granted, some supervillains are more powerful than others, so I wouldn't expect to take down a villain as powerful as say, Magneto by myself. But I should be able to have a decent chance of defeating the Green Goblin or Stilt-Man.

[Awwjwah]

Making my Super feel "SUPER" is a great concept and as this thread shows, a hard to establish feature because as we can see, everyone has their own feelings on what makes us feel "super." With that in mind, and to coin a comic book phrase....

"What if?"

...Hero creation started with choosing the "Tier" of hero you are. I think we can all agree that Robin was not the mental or fighting equal of Batman just as Batman was not the physical equal to Superman. Likewise Spiderman is a "Local" hero to NYC but Ironman and the Avengers span the globe and even space. (And yes, i know Spidey did too once or twice) Now, this doesn't mean Ironman can't stop a bank robbery or ten in a day if he wanted too, but he severly overclasses the bad guys that Spiderman cleans up on a daily basis. Likewise, Spidey can still be hand picked for a jaunt into the outer cosmos but again, the chances are rare. So maybe doing some type of hero tier could work unless Cryptic goes the way of SWG and limits you to one toon per server. (Then again, even that wouldn't be "bad."

....Random acts of violence cause the mission to begin. This idea was touched on in the thread and is something I like. In CoH you find bad guys mugging pedestrians and in CoV you see bad guys fighting bad guys. Why can't interupting these fights lead to missions like it was suggested earlier. Mugger drops gun. Hero uses contacts/lab/supergroup computer database to find where weapon was sold, who made it, who issues it. Heading there starts next stage of mission, etc. Again, this works in tiers because only the starting situation needs to be changed, the mechanics work the same.

.... Powers stayed usefull and infamy/money/currency bought upgrades to toon/homes/bases/contacts. I have to agree with others that though CoX offers a lot of customizing in the powers your toon has, having power ups that weaken as you level is lame. Granted this is there version of a money sink and basis for economy but it is flawed. Infamy, or whatever Champions will call it, should be utilized for fame. It should allow you to add new powers, permanently bolster powers, buy vehicles, base add-ons, and contacts. Spidey was friends with the Fantastic Four which means that even though he's a local hero (Don't say that to J.J.J.) he knew some big players. Large NPC, and lets get crazy and say Player Made teams, could potentiall become contacts for the local boys and girls out there. As contacts they could provide the local hero the path to change tiers or better yet aquire greater levels of power upgrades and go on missions that grant upgrades to a new tier. Let the local brawler grow from hometown hero to cosmic wonder.


To me, tiered hero levels seems the way to go but I admit is not without it's own flaws and critiscm I am sure will come about but is does provide a way to "spread out" the player base, provide multiple levels of in game boss levels and give players more options on pursuing that solo or group career.

Thoughts?

[Sylph_Knight]

This was taken from an interview with Steve Peterson, one of the founders of Hero Games and one of the designers of the Champions pen-and-paper game. He was also one of the creators of Hero Software, and a driving force behind the early 90's failed attempt at a PC adaptation of Champions. This paragraph defines some of the delemmas they faced, expecially concerns about destructive environments and why they are essentual in Super Hero settings but hardly, if ever, taken into account with Fantasy.

The superhero genre is by far the most difficult role-playing genre to implement, either in a paper game or a computer game, because it includes most other genres with itself, and it operates at a much higher power level than other genres. Superheroes can be technological, or magical, or any sort of bizarre combination. Their powers can be literally anything, and they can affect any aspect of the world. Here's one example of a problem in dealing with a superhero game: In a fantasy game you don't have to worry about the environment, because the characters can't affect it, for the most part. Nothing they do can break the walls of the dungeon, for instance. But smashing stone walls is a basic part of superhero role-playing - which means you have to figure out how tough a stone wall is, and what it takes to smash it. And you have to do that for literally everything in the environment. Worse yet, it has to be balanced; you can't have a normal person able to smash open a brick wall with their fist. But at the same time, you don't want someone with superstrength to punch a normal person and turn them into a fine red mist, because that just doesn't happen in the comics.


Full Article: http://www.gamespot.com/features/pcgraveyard_champions/index.html

With the technology of that era, this wasn't possible. It's still VERY hard to do even now. But destructive environments are something that should be done, or have proper systems planned put into place ahead of time so that it can be added in a future release.

EDIT: More information to consider.

Finally, most PC RPGs have been based on the most primitive, original RPG paradigm, the dungeon crawl. Basically, you start out a character as a total wimp, move from room to room (point to point on the map), beat up the monsters, and take their treasure. Along the way, your character gets new magic items and becomes tougher. This is a very easy paradigm to program, and most electronic RPGs follow this formula, with a thin layer of story painted over it. Superheroes just don't work this way - they don't collect treasure, nor do they get appreciably tougher most of the time. And superheroes don't start as wimps - they're superheroes! They do beat up bad guys, but it's all part of an intricate storyline, and the best ones have detailed subplots dealing with the personal lives of the superheroes, as well as their professional careers. This is not an easy paradigm to program, and it's completely unlike the standard electronic RPG paradigm.

[Tempest]

but to be honest I never felt "unsuper" when playing CoX. There were times I may have been a bit disappointed in a power I got (yeah, Hover is a terrible disappointment to heroes that are looking forward to FLYING....) but that disappointment usually diappeared as I rose in levels and learned to develop my powers (now I use Hover constantly and rarely touch down to the ground). I have to make choices about what powers I want to have, but that is part of the fun of creating the character, finding what works best for your concept.

I like to team with others, and I agree with a previous poster that finding a group in CoX is incredibly easy. Sometimes pick up groups are a disaster. What was always nice is that it is easy to drop the group and find another. And I have never had trouble soloing on any of my characters, even my Storm/Electricity defender, and with the introduction of reputation scaling, soloing is easy to customize to your particular character. It can be slow and a grind it some points, but I don't know a single "level based" game, PnP or Computer based, that isn't.

I have played Champions since the days it came in a boxed set, and I agree the system is completely customizable, and if CO can approach that level of customization, they may have something. But I can tell you this - if the character development system in CO mirrors the character creation in Champions PnP, don't expect your character to feel "super" out of the box! When creating a Champions character (which is based on a points system) you buy your stats and powers all from the same staring pool, and those points go FAST. You may be able to run or flay at super speed, or have super strength, or blast others with lightning - but if you can do any of those at first level, don't expect tio be able to do much more. A starting character (for a baseline "heroic" game) is 200 points + disadvantages. Roughly translated, a beginning Champions character is probably as tough as a beginning CoX character. To give it perspective, I believe the most recent version of Defender in the Champions universe is built on approximately 1500 character points.

One of the best superhero movies is recent years in my opinion is Batman Returns. In that movie, there wasn't really a costumed villain at all except possibly the Scarecrow, and Batman never really fought him. What it did have was large groups of ninja minions and a boss at the end that looked just like them. Did this make it any less of a super hero movie?

On the other hand, the Xmen movies (at least I and II, jury is still out on III) were also superhero movies "done right" and the DID have heroes fighting opponents that were their "level" and it worked as well.

So where is this all leading? I guess it is to say there is a lot that CoX did get right, but there is room for improvement. Can CO do better? Maybe. Some things I would like to see them fix in CoX that CO coulod get right out of the box:

1) Give more variety to Boss level characters, and add more Elite Boss encounters that don't ramp up to AV status. The Tsoo bosses and the "signature" heroes and villains in the mayhem/safeguarding missions are a good example. The limitation of course is taking taime to create the signature caraters looks and powers. CO may have a leg up on this with the Nemesis idea. Players will be designing a huge pool of signature villains that could easily be tapped for other players mission ("Hey Tempest, I was just breaking up a bank robbery and guess who was part of the gang... your old buddy StormLord!"). Have the final mission in some arcs be just heroes vs signature villains (elite bosses), and make it easier for the heroes to separate the villains so they action can be more one on one, yet you can switch targets if need be.

2) Create more "heroic" content such as civilian saving missions. Leading innocent bystanders out of the burning building, saving them from floods or building collapses, etc. To this end, there are two major improvements CO would need to make over CoX:
2a) Make AI smarter... MUCH smarter. There are a couple of missions that require you to save this or that NPC, and nothing is more frustrating then saving them, and then having them immediately aggro on something across the map and running off and getting killed and the mission "fails." Also, on lead out missions (especially with masterminds) the NPC become "unstuck" way to easily leading to incredible fustration when trying to herd the NPC to the goal
2b) Add environmental effects that effect heroes/civilians, and allow powers that effect those effects. When fighting fires in steel, my weather controller can only effect them using Freezing Rain which only does minor damage, yet should be an excellent way to put out a fire. Write special routines for these effects so the special effects of some powers can effect them. Maybe a handclap can blow out the fire, and ice patch/freezing ran do significant "damage" to the fire, and a hero can put a forcefield around a fire to starve it. In an Earthquake, electrical heroes can supply power, TK or superstrength to free civilians trapped under heavy objects.

3) Add some investigation content. Maybe certain "perception powers" will high light certain "glowies" the character can collect. These clues might open certain mini side quests where further investigation can be done (maybe through use of coordinates, clues that reference the content of certain history markers, etc) with doors that do not show up on the map but are still accessible to your character if you have the proper clue in their possesion. Each of these successful investigations will give you part of a final clue (say peices of a torn up message) and once you have all of them, it leads you to the final mission. The initial mystery could be given to the player by a contact, but after that all sections would be driven by the clues. If a player gets stuck, they could access help with the clues through contacts with the correct origin background, specialty and/or relationship level). Once the final mission is completed, the investigation would be concluded by the initial contact for the reward.

4) Add more overlays to repeated content. From a practicality standpoint, not every instance can be unique. We have all done office buildings and caves again and again, but Frostfire and PWNZ badge mission and Katie's cave in the KTF will always be memorable because of something as simple as an overlay. Not ever office needs to have one, but having an overlay that is approprite to the group encountered goes a long way to dispelling the "been there/done that" syndrome.

I guess i have said enough to start. I'll add more ideas as they come to me.

[Genosaurer]

I agree with this as well, there were too many times in CoX where we would end up fighting enemies like the Family at higher levels and to a certain degree some of the Malta guys looked spectacularly bland as well, now I don't like the Devouring Earth personally or even the Carnival of Shadows but at least there "seemed" to be something "super powered" about them.

I dunno, I think having non-super-powered foes is a great way to help heroes "feel more super" in the game... as long as you make it clear that these foes are not nearly as powerful as the player is. It's cool to have the player fight a group of non-powered gangsters (it happens a lot in comic books), but there has to be a distinction in how much damage they do and how durable they are when compared to "super" foes - one of the things that made my Tanker in City of Heroes feel considerably less than super is when I'd go from a mission fighting laser-blasting robots to a mission fighting baseball-bat wielding gangsters AND BE IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF DANGER IN BOTH.

I want to see missions where my hero gets to wade through huge groups of non-powered enemies - a street gang, a bunch of soldiers, I dunno. It's important to have some foes that have the same level of power that you do, but when everything you fight in the game is as strong as you are, it really doesn't convey the feeling of "being super".

[Awwjwah]

I dunno, I think having non-super-powered foes is a great way to help heroes "feel more super" in the game... as long as you make it clear that these foes are not nearly as powerful as the player is. It's cool to have the player fight a group of non-powered gangsters (it happens a lot in comic books), but there has to be a distinction in how much damage they do and how durable they are when compared to "super" foes - one of the things that made my Tanker in City of Heroes feel considerably less than super is when I'd go from a mission fighting laser-blasting robots to a mission fighting baseball-bat wielding gangsters AND BE IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF DANGER IN BOTH.

I want to see missions where my hero gets to wade through huge groups of non-powered enemies - a street gang, a bunch of soldiers, I dunno. It's important to have some foes that have the same level of power that you do, but when everything you fight in the game is as strong as you are, it really doesn't convey the feeling of "being super".

I agree and would like to restate my idea on tiered super hero's.

Spider-man vs Bank Robbing goons mean's using his spidey sense to dodge bullets, ensnare them in webbing,rock and sock em and leave em tied u pfor the police.

Spidey vs Mysterio, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Lizard, Rhino, Sandman, etc, is a dramatic change of difficulty for Spidey but:

Now take it up a notch.

Ironman vs Bank Robbers is walk in, low level blast em, walk out. Why dodge bullets?

Ironman vs. The Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man, Dr. Doom, The Mandarin, etc is again More epic.

However, Ironman vs Spidey's foes would be a snore and Spidey vs Ironmans would be lethal. (Regardless of Spidey fighting Ironman in the Civial War series)

[Sylph_Knight]

Actually, Spider-man is more of a trick character. He uses alot of gimmicks and attacks with his webs to get where he's going. He also takes alot of abuse, squashed like a bug, and somehow still keeps going. Of any Marvel Hero, I can't think of one as badly whomped on as Spidey. If not for his Spider-Sense, he'd be gone ages ago.

Spider-man isn't poweful in a traditional sense, but he's got a marvelous intellect, sheer wit, and plenty of tricks and traps up his sleeve. He is clever. Iron Man is just a man with alot of fancy gadgets who happens to be nigh-impervious and a technical juggernaut. But that doesn't mean he can match Spider-man's super-reflexes, spider-sense, and cleverness. Both have their strengths, but don't wager your money on one just because he looks almighty upfront. That lower-tier Hero may just surprise you! That's why Spider-man is exceptionally capable and useful in adventures that span across nations and even the universe. He has unique traits that other heroes cannot account for.

Don't believe me? Look how he beat Venom in Spider-man 3. Not Comic-canon, but it is a good example of his ingenuity. Iron Man is very strong against opponents he knows and plans for (and given his lengthy career, that's alot of preparation), but if something new hits him, he generally finds himself in a bind.

That's my opinion, anyway.

[Awwjwah]

Sylph,

I def agree with you and trust me, i don't take one over the over at face value at all. Both in fact are fave marvel characters of mine and your comments second my thoughts. Both are true hero's and both are super but they battle in different arena's when it comes to the comics. One's on a local stage, another global, and thus they become as different as their powers. That is what woul dmake a tiered idea work because the player can choose to be the hero who patrols the same city day in and day out, fighting against the minions of their arch rival and local city menace or if they want and need to feel more "cosmic" they can defend the globe and beyond. In both cases the missions, powers and abilites can be "scaled" for effects but at any time that global defender can tap the local hero on the shoulder and say "Hey, I need your help." Then utilizing a tool not unlike CoX's sidekicks, they are "equals" in the good fight.

[EthanDirtch]

The major flaw in CoX was that--even though most people looked failry unique--they still FELT fairly generic. It's inherent with the movesets (how they're exactly the same for everyone), the base models, the powers, and the lack of interactive environments (until later).

To help make Superheroes and Supervillains feel 'Super', you have to have:

-unique looking powers (check!)

-unique movesets: As mentioned before, the perfect example is Spider-Man, and someone like Juggernaut. Spider-Man is this totally agile character that relies on his speed, reflexes, and intelligence. He does not go toe-to-toe with villains, ever, even if he outclasses them in strength. He relies on wearing down his opponents both with his abilities and his witty banter. Juggernaut, on the other hand, is this slow, plodding, powerful character. He's not fast, he doesn't jump (often), and it really comes across in the way he moves. What I am trying to say is that these two characters are different from each other and unique not only in appearance, or what the writers say their powers are, but how they move and hold themself. I think this is important in making heroes feel more powerful, or more invested in their powers.

-Destructible Environemnt: what makes Superman feel so powerful isn't only his example of the morally correct; it is his sheer power! He can lift oil tankers with one hand, catch airplanes, support buildings...heck, several years ago he was able to move a planet! Now, I'm not saying we should be able to move planets...what I am trying to propose here is the ability for our powers to have an effect on the environment. Allow superpowered guys to lift cars, or trucks, or rip out pieces of concrete. Allow guys with fire abilities to burn things; allow a guy with concussive energy blasts to break away pieces of solid objects, or dent things. This is a little harder because of the graphical and processing requirements, but it certainly would be nice. As heroes become stronger or more experienced, they should also be able to do more damage, to a degree. Remember,Superman as a toddler lifted a truck; Superman as an adult ricently lifted a 30-ton piece of kryptonite rock (yes, he was wearing a lead suit!).

[Slipshade]

Great points and ideas on how to feel super…but in all honesty there will never be a way for this to happen with the current way MMO’s are run. I mean…the newest Red Faction game has brought real physics into it, allowing you to weaken the supports of a building to bring it down…but the game is a single player to limited multiplayer. In a MMO world, you share it with thousands of people on a server. What is to stop some high level from going to the newb zone, smashing all buildings needed for quests and leaving? Would buildings re-spawn like npcs? It seems to almost take away from the world rather then make things fun.

Now I’m not against destructible environments at all…I love them…but I just don’t see how they would fit into an MMO. Perhaps if it were limited to instance missions…but then would all missions be instances? Things to think about.

Anyway, I apparently was one of the few who felt ‘Super’ with the release of CoH. I have played MMO’s since MUDD’s and can’t tell how good it was to bust some gang members heads rather then rats…bats…or other stupidity. And the day I learned to fly? That was a fun day indeed. I sailed over every zone I could, and enjoyed the heck out of it! I think the true issue for CoH is the lack of development. They have given us a large amount of grand things…but I want more. I want more powers to come down faster…I want different villain groups…I want to see different villain groups attacking one another! In CoX, you see rival gangs at war in the streets and when you walk up, they suddenly decide to throw caution to the wind and work together in perfect harmony! If I were in that position, I’d throw a rival forward to the hero and make like the wind out of there!

I have always felt super in CoX…but it just seems like it is slowing down. Most of the new content has been rehashes of what we have seen before…and I grow weary of it. What happened to Earth Shattering storylines and exciting events?? The Rikki invasion was great…but it was so short I never felt like I was in a war.

I still have an active CoX account and love it…but the game play has felt like it needed more. I hope Champions can deliver the super hero game experience I have been wanting.

[Sylph_Knight]

Since we got onto the topic of the Juggernaut, I got to thinking...

Tackle... you know, attack powers resulting from you moving, and knocking aside anything in your path.

Powers that move your position (and your enemies) is something CoH never explored. They were all very static, "stand here and do this" powers. Powers that make you move from your position when you use them would give the game a much more dynamic feel.

How about Flying Tackle! Hurl yourself into a group of enemies!

Or Passing Slash: charge past your opponent in a quick slashing attack, virtually teleporting behind him as a flashing trail passes through him and ties to your now-extended sword!

I could come up with a whole list of these.

Rope/Webline Swinging Kick! Batman and Spider-man did alot of these.

[EthanDirtch]

Since we got onto the topic of the Juggernaut, I got to thinking...

Tackle... you know, attack powers resulting from you moving, and knocking aside anything in your path.

Powers that move your position (and your enemies) is something CoH never explored. They were all very static, "stand here and do this" powers. Powers that make you move from your position when you use them would give the game a much more dynamic feel.

How about Flying Tackle! Hurl yourself into a group of enemies!

Or Passing Slash: charge past your opponent in a quick slashing attack, virtually teleporting behind him as a flashing trail passes through him and ties to your now-extended sword!

I could come up with a whole list of these.

Rope/Webline Swinging Kick! Batman and Spider-man did alot of these.

Yeah, it was a shame that CoX was pretty much 'stand toe to toe and slug it out' even if you're not supposed to be a hero that slugs it out. Same with ranged attack, except it's not toe to toe, of course.

To help make things super, a superhero game should have 'mobile combat', or 'moving combat'. Whether it's in the air, on the ground, in the water, under water, in space, what have you. Things like a flying tackle, or a spear tackle, or a dive bomb, or a lunge would be really nice. It would add layers of immersion, along with some form of interactive/destructible environment.

I can just imagine a Juggernaut-type, or Hulk-type, hero walking down a street, civilians bouncing with each of his/her steps, cars shifting and tilting (or even windows breaking and alarms being set off :D

[Sylph_Knight]

Also, touch-and-go combat. CoH removed that with a Speed Reduction after every attack that I thought was silly. It was put in for PvP, but made things much less dynamic. I'd love to see run-and-gun combat.

[Aceldama]

/signed

All excellent ideas and hopefully with CO's focus on fast-paced action and tactical decisions, we'll see a lot less mindless beatings and power-spamming.

[Slivan]

Hey there,
I've been a member of CoH community since 2002 and have maintained an active account throughout CoH/CoV life time. However I am not a regular player, I'd like to be as I've been a comic book nerd since the womb but the gameplay I felt let me down. My queries with Champions online are these;

1. How are you goin to make the powers feel powerful. CoH suffered from the problem that everypower was just a different glowing kinda light. You never felt like a total badass. Especially when signature superhero powers like Super Strength just made big orange bubbles and push characters pack 5 meters without scratching them. Also interms of scaling, how are you goin to make your 50th level power make your 1st level power look like a *****? It'd be nice, for instance, to see your 1st level power be something like a batarang, and your 50th level power be a laser from space that can level a city block, literally.

2. To follow on from one, another thing in CoH that i felt was lacking (though was eventually put in) was the destruction of scenery. Since most heroes across the genre win by "using their head", which usually boils down to "hitting them with something in the scenery", will Champions incorporate this kind of action in their action based fighting? It'd be cool for instance to suprise a group of thuggers with a car to the face.

3. Finally onto the enemies themselves. MMO's where the promise of online worlds to explore but seem to have developed into npc kioskes. Will champions NPCs be active? In that they live day to day, they rob stuff, so that heroes will actually have to track down crimes and can therefore have active missions. I.e finding a crime in progress activates the mission related to it, but no guarentee turning up their later would produce the same crime? This would allow for the inclusion of powers like xray vision and super hearing as these would be your minimap alert tools?

4. Lastly in regard to missions. In CoH the time when everyone rallys back to the game are when the big events go down which are awesome. Is Champions going to include things like this? Will there be constant zone events, and live action worlds rather then static mission markers?

Anyone who can shed light on these possibilities would be much appreciated, know it's abit early to be making demands of the game, but if it's going to be a next-gen MMO i'd like to see some next gen features :cool:

Cheers

I have read this a few times and i dont see how it will work " In that they live day to day, they rob stuff, so that heroes will actually have to track down crimes and can therefore have active missions. I.e finding a crime in progress activates the mission related to it, but no guarentee turning up their later would produce the same crime" yea its a good concept but there is one major flaw inthis with the thousands of people online at any given time, it will be underly impossible to find a "bankroberie" or what not that does not already have someone doing the quest they will be taken the moment they start, so alot of people will be frustrated with the lack of personal missions were they dont have to worry about some random person geting to it before them. All this said going on the assumption that only one hero can stop a bank from being robed unless there grouped..... And if thats not the case how will you solve this problem when its in the world witch is not instanced off from other people. like i said its a great idea but it just has a really big flaw

[Sylph_Knight]

I have read this a few times and i dont see how it will work " In that they live day to day, they rob stuff, so that heroes will actually have to track down crimes and can therefore have active missions. I.e finding a crime in progress activates the mission related to it, but no guarentee turning up their later would produce the same crime" yea its a good concept but there is one major flaw inthis with the thousands of people online at any given time, it will be underly impossible to find a "bankroberie" or what not that does not already have someone doing the quest they will be taken the moment they start, so alot of people will be frustrated with the lack of personal missions were they dont have to worry about some random person geting to it before them. All this said going on the assumption that only one hero can stop a bank from being robed unless there grouped..... And if thats not the case how will you solve this problem when its in the world witch is not instanced off from other people. like i said its a great idea but it just has a really big flaw

Actually, what if we had regularly available instanced mini-mission encounters triggered by stopping street crimes, like those in City of Heroes' Safeguard Missions. Add an expiration timer, just like the ones in the Safeguard Missions, and you meet all the criteria necessary to match that suggestion.

[Aceldama]

Actually, what if we had regularly available instanced mini-mission encounters triggered by stopping street crimes, like those in City of Heroes' Safeguard Missions. Add an expiration timer, just like the ones in the Safeguard Missions, and you meet all the criteria necessary to match that suggestion.

Or take it a step further with the investigation idea Cap came up with.

/signed on this idea.

[zenbiont]

Integrate a police radio/city crisis network/word on the street/supersense/ etc. to the mix, and spontaneous mini-missions could pop up throughout a metropolis as in RL. Heroes monitor the traffic or whatever to find out where mini-events are happening real time, and rush to the scene.

[Sylph_Knight]

Woo! That gave me an idea!

What if there are giant television sets throughout the city at major intersections, like in madison square, where when a Giant Monster spawns, a news report pops up!

And we need Helicopters! I can't believe how CoH missed Helicopters as functional items. Some poor super-saps back in the 40s actually got their press from going toe-to-toe with helicopters (as sad as that sounds). Heck, even a helicopter flying around at random like the Atlas Park blimp in City of Heroes would help the immersion.

And flying foes! Give us some flying air patrols. CoH implimented this ONLY in their Croatoa zone. It should have been EVERYWHERE!! Expecially in the Shadow Shard, where the only time you encounter flying foes is near the Crystal Palace or some-such.

I'm a flying and air-thematic super hero. I desire flying targets and raids that involve flying specifically, like gigantic aerial battlecruisers or flying space aliens we have to chase down. Sure, people who can't fly cannot participate, but Super Jump got Rooftop Battles (and boy if there weren't 20 of those going on every city block). Besides, the Drop Ship Raids on City of Heroes proved that, with Group Fly, you can host an Aerial Raid against moving targets and still keep up even if you don't have fly. There were also plenty of folks who had the temp-travel jet pack for that raid.

Heroes and Flying are almost synonymous thanks to Superman and the like. There should be therefore be combat associated with flying. Maybe not in every zone, but frequent air battles no less where it makes sense. Like Super Villain base air patrols.

And speaking of flying, we need to be able to go over the cloudline. I happen to have a very old CoH Demo Video that shows skyscrapers reaching over the cloudline, and a flying heroine briefly flying over the top of the cloudline amongst them. (http://www.shatteredlegacy.com/coh/cloudline.jpg)

[syhrd]

With the stumbling upon bank robbies thing I'm with Sylph_Knight. Though i suppose an alternative would be since the game has limited draw distance, the game could sense when your nearby and then spawn a robbery, and you'd feel like u'd stumbled on it but it's just been waiting to spawn, or to address slivans problem about people turning up to late, a dynamics grouping system could be implemented, where by when you move into the "zone" of crime, you are put into the group, then rewards are proportionally balanced based on response time and effect on criminals. That way ubers can't turn up and kill steal, but noobs can't just rush crimes they can't handle to get massive exp. Hell it'd be really cool if we could get some token heroic missunderstandings which kicks off a pvp duel if you stumble on the same crime, missions could result but massively hard to implement

[Urban]

As long as they don't go back to their way of thinking in CoH "1 hero = 3 minions" I think we'll all feel just a little bit more super than little Archie down the street.

[segyn88]

My biggest hope for this is game is more open world action and less having to go to a door of a building. I loved that CoH was superheroes but the game play was pretty boring. If it is more open world like EQ2 or SWG I think the game will be a sure winner.

I hope i can feel like a true super hero nothing says more than flying above the city and hearing a scream, flying down to stop a train from going off a track that your arch enemy cut.

Oh the gates are now open woooooohooooo.

I have to thank CoH for bringing the superhero mmo to life now i hope CO learns from CoH's mistakes and capitalizes. But also look at the things CoH did well.

I have to many thoughts going through my head right now to continue my post. I'm so excited

[molie3]

One thing I've noticed is that villains never seem to attack an sg's base in COH, I think that you should get a message that a villain maybe your nemesis has is about to or already attacking your home.

I woul also love while grouping a group nemesis/archenemy mission when all the groups nemesis' attack at the same time and its team against team. You could also give your teammates clues on how to defeat your archnemesis if you knew their powers enough.

I like the idea someone said earlier about seperating AVs when you fight multiples and different team members take them down. AVs also need weakness' becuase no they don't seem to have any.

That is what I love about the Nemesis system that I will design my nemesis to have some weakness and I will make myself weak to some of my nemesis attacks.

[Relitner]

Hey there,
I've been a member of CoH community since 2002 and have maintained an active account throughout CoH/CoV life time. However I am not a regular player, I'd like to be as I've been a comic book nerd since the womb but the gameplay I felt let me down. My queries with Champions online are these;

Cheers

1) I really like the idea of being able to build on your existing powers by adding attributes. Enhancements in CoH was an attempt at this, but fell short. As already mentioned, they became weak, and eventually useless as a character leveled. I have always liked the idea of skill trees (MxO does a good job with this... ShadowRun is my favorite example). They allow a character to become ultra-specialized in one area, or fan out across a bunch of different areas, while not mastering any single one. Depending on how complex the skill trees are, you can end up with some pretty unique combinations.

2) Destructible environments in an MMO are really hard to pull off outside of a non-instanced mission map. If the envoronment were completely destructible, there would be nothing left of the persisted game world after day 1. Though it is kinda fun to think about the sheer volume of junked cars, wasted lamp-posts, and demolished buildings after just 1 hour of gameplay (averaging about 50 heroes in a zone).

3) Again, this is really tough to pull off in an MMO. There could be hundreds of different heroes tracking down the same bad-guy for robbing the same bank. I think Cryptic did a very good job of implementing stories and plots (and they got better as time went on... i.e Faultline). I did feel, however, that some of the game lore while in-game was difficult (at best) to find. I would expect to be able to find a dossier on FrostFire on my "mission computer", check out his criminal record (all those arrests... oy!), etc...
They started with a good idea, having NPC's with back-stories and skills. But they fell short again. Those skills are completely inaccessable to us for the most part. I would expect to hear "Sure I can tell you something about this power source you found. But since I don't know you from Adam, I'll need you to help me out first...". NPCs would also be a great way to unlock hidden abilities on skill trees, etc...

4) Zone events rock (Rikti invasion)... (Winter Lord ala I3... not so much)

[Sylph_Knight]

My biggest hope for this is game is more open world action and less having to go to a door of a building. I loved that CoH was superheroes but the game play was pretty boring. If it is more open world like EQ2 or SWG I think the game will be a sure winner.

I hope i can feel like a true super hero nothing says more than flying above the city and hearing a scream, flying down to stop a train from going off a track that your arch enemy cut.

Oh the gates are now open woooooohooooo.

I have to thank CoH for bringing the superhero mmo to life now i hope CO learns from CoH's mistakes and capitalizes. But also look at the things CoH did well.

I have to many thoughts going through my head right now to continue my post. I'm so excited

My Levels? Again? (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=1201) thread discusses alot of sandbox ideas and alternatives, even when applied to leveling structure. You should take a look at it. It deserves mention in this thread as it endorses the "Supers feeling Super" idea.


2) Destructible environments in an MMO are really hard to pull off outside of a non-instanced mission map. If the envoronment were completely destructible, there would be nothing left of the persisted game world after day 1. Though it is kinda fun to think about the sheer volume of junked cars, wasted lamp-posts, and demolished buildings after just 1 hour of gameplay (averaging about 50 heroes in a zone).
But what if Cars and destructables spawned like enemy NPCs do? That wouldn't be far-fetched.

ANOTHER IDEA: A switch for "Random Encounters", so you can turn off random encounters that your character generates (not other people's) while just flying around. That way you don't have to feel guilty every time you see a purse-snatcher below while you're flying by towards a mission.

[Adamantium]

As a superhero i want to be able to take down costumed named villains, supervillains and arch villains. I dont want to be required to get a group of heroes together to defeat some arch villain. Now i am not against galactic powered villains which would require a group or more to take down but these should be special missions or events not the norm.

I think the arch nemesis idea is a great start.

[Odhinn]

See, I disagree with that.

I quit playing WoW when I realized that I was spending 95% of my time soloing. Because if I was gonna play a solo rpg, I had *significantly* better ones available than WoW. If I want to play a solo super heroes game, I've got plenty to pick from, they don't require a monthly fee, and they can do a lot more things with the story/character, since they don't have to worry about others.

I want a game that encourages grouping, makes grouping simple (CoH is still by *far* the best game I've played in terms of speed and fun of teaming), and reward