Any value to getting to know Champions PnP?

[Razreshat]

I've played alot of role playing games in my life and a few MMOs, currently a CoX player too.

However, I never played the Champions HERO System based roleplaying game before. Is there any point in getting to know that system in preparation for Champion's Online?

I know Cryptic bought the game's IP, not its system, however much of what the devs have put out so far makes it sound like CO is going to also be loosely based on the HERO System.

So, would I be wasting my time by getting to know that system a bit better? Would that knowledge help me get a better idea of what it would be like to make a character in this new game?

Thanks.

[Test-Rat]

I say check it out for the sake of Checking it out!

Played it for years (better with drinks :P ) and I urge you to at least go to the Hero system webside and
check it out. You will need some openmined friends (people who have imagination/play DnD etc) to
have fun with it however.

[Cyjack]

It would be worth it for flavor. Its not a port of the game rules, but some of the characters and backstory from those materials is in. Depends on how into fluff you are.

[TerraDraconis]

It probably wouldn't hurt to give you a basic idea what is likely to be the game. They have said that while they can't make it a perfect match they will be drawing on the HERO system for inspiration. I can see why they would say this. The HERO system is just to flexible and you have to have some limits simply because there is a limit to how much animation you can have ready. So I expect that the basic concepts are there but channeled into the restrictions of the computer. IE you can pick attack powers but can't select a 10d6 Energy Blast and then define it as anything from a flaming sword to a ray of frost to a gravity beam. Instead you will pick between a number of already built attack powers.

[Diamond_Spear]

Picking up the game and starting a PnP game for you and your friends before launch would be a great idea. Being a HERO player for 18 years may, however, make me less than an unbiased observer. :)

[Geistwulf]

I’d have to say getting Champions PnP would be a total waste of time…unless you have a lot of time to waste. I’ve played several PnP games and loved the Super Hero based ones. However I never even bothered with Champions. Between looking over the core book and seeing how overly complicated it looked and due to the horror stories I heard from friends that had played it I opted for not giving it a try. Don’t get me wrong they loved the game but also hated it.

The run down is as follows. Great customizations for powers but at the cost of making character creation and combat a equation intensive overly time consuming task. But hey if that’s your thing knock yourself out.

[nuwisha]

Seriously. Theres an old type of game still out there, called a MUSH, that uses telnet. And I know of one place at least that uses the Champions PnP system. I played there for over a year...much like a PnP game, except that I was able to meet people around the world. Of course, it's all about the roleplay, not the rollplay, so if all you want is dice chucking door kicking action, don't bother.

[dca5347]

I liked the System. I liked "DC Heroes" better but "Champions" was the 1st Superhero game I played:cool:

[thepatriot]

What might be more useful is the Champions Universe book which details the IP that Cryptic bought. The book can be purchased here (https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=76869) or you can just buy the PDF download here (https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=195689).

[DocCosmic]

I'm going to go along with the votes that specify it's an interesting system and something you'd probably enjoy reading through if you're into pen and paper games.

If you're asking solely for the purpose of preparing for the online game, I'd suggest waiting until the game is closer to release. They're bringing out a sixth edition next year, and I suspect that one will include material that more directly relates to the online game.

[InkTank]

What might be more useful is the Champions Universe book which details the IP that Cryptic bought. The book can be purchased here (https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=76869) or you can just buy the PDF download here (https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=195689).

This would be my first suggestion. Get the Champions Universe book as a primer on the Champions world. It details the history of the universe (from the first costumed crime fighters), how heroes and villains have affected the world, tells you the major players from heroes to villains to organizations.

At the very least it should spark up some ideas on how your hero fits into the world.

As for the core HERO rulebook and character creation system, that can be overlooked unless you want to play the PnP game. The system used in the books (from what I've read here) to create characters is drastically different than what they will be using online. However, the powers available should be listed in the CC books, so if you want to get a general idea of what powers you might be able to build around, go for it.

[elf8bliss]

You can often buy the manual or campaigns for cheap at comic book shops or rpg stores. The campaigns have some nice lore to the Champions Universe, great ideas, and just some fascinating reads on arch nemesis.

[Blacklamb]

Over all I'm pretty sure you can skip it, if you just want to play Champions Online you don't need to do anything but to stay tuned to the boards.

But If you are in the market for a new PnP and have a group of friends that are not afraid of math then get it. And if in a few day the question is still nagging you, just reread InkTank's post. He's dead on for what I would do(especially since the curiosity would hound me relentlessly and I'd just HAVE to know the world).

[Gold-Rush]

I've been curious as well about the Champions PnP.

Great responses all around, guys. Real helpful, even the naysayers. :)

[thepatriot]

Of course IMHO Champions is the greatest PnP RPG ever so if you want a great offline game, pick it up.

[Spidey88]

The Hero System (and by extension Champions, which is only a facet of the Hero System) is a fantastic game. I'm running a campaign in it that has lasted almost 2 years, and I've played the game in one incarnation or another since around 1990. There's a reason I've stuck with it that long...

Getting into the PnP version of Champions in terms of understanding the way the MMO will work? I suspect that may be a "waste" of time. Getting into it for some great roleplaying potential? Definitely NOT a waste.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a game that gives you more flexibility and options in character creation - and that carries over into gameplay nicely. A character sheet in Champions conveys an incredible amount of depth and detail - and I feel that this can only HELP roleplaying that character. You know what he can do, and how well he can do it. You know his fears, weaknesses, etc.

Granted, it doesn't make you define every little thing in minute detail to the point of anal-retentiveness, so don't take that the wrong way. What it does do is allow you the ability to create any sort of character you want (point budget considering); without being constrained by character classes or levels. Being as detailed as it is, character creation can be a time-consuming process for a newbie - but it's by no means "complicated". Imagine giving a copy of D&D to someone who had never played a D20 game before - you can imagine how long it would take them! Once you know how to do it in Hero, it's quite simple (I can make a character in 1/2 an hour if I've got a strong concept) - what takes time is the decision-making process if you don't have a solid idea formed right at the start.

Hero's greatest strength is its flexibility - some games might be a little simpler to pick up, but this one is worth the effort. It's billed as "The Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit", and it's a fitting label. No other system - not GURPS, not Tri-stat, not M&M, not D20 - gives you so much room and yet so much to play with. You need to know how to use those tools - but in the end, you'll get exactly the results you want, instead of having to settle for "almost".

Really, the core of the Hero System is exactly what everyone has been clamoring for with the MMO - options, options, options! If it's still daunting to you? Hero Games has a great character generator for only $25 bucks or so, and the equivalent of phone books full of powers already written up, ready to use at your whim. You could make thousands of characters without having an original thought in your head! Their forums are easily the friendliest, most helpful of the sort I've ever found - you have a question about the rules? Someone there, including Steve Long himself (Hero's line editor and main writer, and the official voice of the rules) can answer you lickety-split!


As for the actual play of the game? I flows very smoothly once you know the game. Everything is internally consistent, to the point that you don't NEED the books to make games run properly - you make a decision as to how to adjudicate a situation on the fly, and after the session you discover there's a situation they describe that does things almost exactly like you did it, because it makes sense! That being said, it's uniquely well-suited to running superheroes - it was originally designed with that in mind; and for better or for worse, it still shows through in places.

You want to know how to do a "fastball special"? It's there. You want to rip a lamppost out of the ground and smack a guy with it? You can. Your superstrong guy punches a bank robber? Unless he pulls the blow, that bank robber will be sent flying for meters and meters - but if the bank robber can increase his mass and density to something like neutronium, he probably won't budge an inch (even if the punch might still hurt a bit). In a nutshell, it simulates high-intensity superhero action very well - you play it with finesse, and it feels like a comic book should.

Combat, like character creation, has a huge variety of options - that is what slows it down for some. You need to be able to decide whether or not you want to trip the bad guy, try and grab him, try to disarm him with a kick, sneak up above him and scare the bejeezus out of him with a good soliloquy, or take cover and try to talk to him, etc. You can do all of these things and more (depending on the situation, of course) - I'd recommend keeping things simple at first, and limiting the options until you get the hang of it (which really isn't very long). In other words, you keep it to basic types of attacks, and it runs very quickly. Add in the rest of the details to your content as you are comfortable with them.

That's another selling point of the game - you take all those extra details out, and the basic structure of the game works just fine anyway.

As to why others think the game is so hard to learn? Hero has a bit of a rep to overcome, and I think (emphasis on think - not know) it boils down to patience. It isn't a game you can pick up and run without a bit of a learning curve - but it is very easy to play if you've got at least one person in the group who knows what they're doing. I'd suggest finding a local group (via your local gaming store of the Hero site's "Player Finder") to get a feel for how the game really works in play.



AHEM... anyway, rant aside...

If you're looking to understand the backstory behind a lot of the MMO's characters, places, and events, then the PnP sourcebooks are the place to do it. They're universally well-written, and are an engaging read even if you never play the game - the Champions Universe has an interesting history, populated with interesting people and places. From what I can see, some details have changed slightly, but Defender is still Defender, Dr. Destroyer still obliterated much of Detroit in 1992, etc.

Your opinions may vary, of course - but like I say, there's a reason I've played the game as long as I have; and there's a reason Jack Emmert chose the Champions Universe when Marvel gave him the heave-ho.

[Greylurker]

Until Mutants and Masterminds showed up Champions was my pick for best Superhero RPG out there. You had such flexibility in making your characters but the system was pretty intimidating. I had a character who's power was that he could hear the Soundtrack of the world. (Imagine the world was a Movie or TV show and you were the only person who could hear the music track). Anything you could imagine Champions could let you make.

Mutants & Masterminds is really close in that level of flexibility but the system is a lot less intimidating so it is easier to get new players for it.

[Rusted]

Thanks for the link Patriot. Think I'll be geting that after pay day. Have some good old PnP fun for abit.

[HaD3k]

This would be my first suggestion. Get the Champions Universe book as a primer on the Champions world. It details the history of the universe (from the first costumed crime fighters), how heroes and villains have affected the world, tells you the major players from heroes to villains to organizations.

At the very least it should spark up some ideas on how your hero fits into the world.

As for the core HERO rulebook and character creation system, that can be overlooked unless you want to play the PnP game. The system used in the books (from what I've read here) to create characters is drastically different than what they will be using online. However, the powers available should be listed in the CC books, so if you want to get a general idea of what powers you might be able to build around, go for it.

Fantastic. This is extremely helpful.