Non-power attributes.

[guyhey]

One thing I know about the Champions pen and paper game is that you can spend points to make your character have non-powered based attributes, like wealth and what not. Any word on it those sorts of things will be put into the game.

One suggestion for how wealth could work, a player with that attribute could start with a little extra cash, or what the in game resource is, and each time they level they get a bonus. It could be a like a per diem, but a per level instead.

[techogre]

I certainly hope they do! I can see spending points on a base and maybe a vehicle.

[TheMystic]

This is something that I am hoping for too. One of the problems with CoH is not having enough to do. I mean there is combat and that's it. The invention system is a nice addition, but I feel it's not incorporated in the game enough to be very appealing. I would like to have skills to do different things like in other MMOs. Imagine if your arcane character could make consumable spells or scrolls for other heroes. In the same way, a tech hero could make consumable gadgets. To me, that is what makes hero's interesting... how do they defend justice without punches or blasts?

[guyhey]

This is something that I am hoping for too. One of the problems with CoH is not having enough to do. I mean there is combat and that's it. The invention system is a nice addition, but I feel it's not incorporated in the game enough to be very appealing. I would like to have skills to do different things like in other MMOs. Imagine if your arcane character could make consumable spells or scrolls for other heroes. In the same way, a tech hero could make consumable gadgets. To me, that is what makes hero's interesting... how do they defend justice without punches or blasts?

Did you ever read identity crisis? There was a character in that comic, I'm sure he appeared in other ones as well, who sold tips to heroes, or villains for that matter. If someone needed to know something they'd call him and he'd research it, he'd give tips on hero/villain sightings and just about anything else. It would be incredible to have players be able to fill those kinds of roles for other players.

[JimmyHell]

I like the idea of something like a wealth attribute. It would definitely play up with the RP'ers... Is your character a Billionaire playboy who heroes for fun? or a gifted hero who lives on the fringes of society because she doesn't have the time to do the whole "work for money" thing... people need to be saved!

[Fayde]

None of the above, mine's a hobo....

[hermit000]

hopefully we actually get stats, like body intelect etc, amd get to buy them to the levels we want to in the point build. Its always nice to think of a character as something more than a bunch of powers. Give a baseline for normal human in the stat categories, and then let us decide how 'super' we want to be, do we go batman and be peak human in our stats, with lots of skillls and gizmos, or do we go the oposote end as superman and bulk up on powewr with way above human stats, but limit the skills. I miss games that had stats and skills we could adjust ourselves instead of being told all heros are generic aside from their powers.

[Raindog]

Indeed. I always love things that give your characters a personal flair.

[guyhey]

Indeed. I always love things that give your characters a personal flair.

I don't think anyone can slight COH for not having options to give your character flavor. Granted it didn't have everything most of us desired, but when you compare it to games like WOW, or anything else really COH characters stood out as unique.

I still can't play another MMORPG for more than a month or two before I get frustrated that my character doesn't have anything that sets him apart. Heck character creation in other games just makes me sad. Even if Champions doesn't raise the bar from COH it'll still be better than what else is out there.

Personally I hope they raise the bar and then some. ;)

[Certified]

Although I doubt all the Skills, Perks and Talents from the Hero system will make it over there are a lot if interesting possibilities for expanding game play. Just looking at the idea of skills, a mission that requires the character to get information from a computer, without skills the character clicks on the object data collected done, with skills the character may be able to access the information themselves or they may need to bring someone else along who can (One way to encourage teams) or take the computer out of the mission witch may have it's own set of parameters such as once the object is acquired it triggers a deferent set of encounters opposed to having the Data acquired.

[Diamond_Spear]

I really hope they find some way to bring skills inot the game. The main detraction of MMOs is that they eventuallly turn into repetative combat and looting and not much else. Skills, properly implimented would go a long way towards mitigating that.

[Aceldama]

All good.

Like you folks said, I hope there's more to do than just punch unfortunate faces.

Crafting would be phenomenal from the outset. What makes MMOs stand out nowadays is how they do things differently, so let's hope we see some innovation there. Giving every character the same ability to craft ala CoX takes away from being unique or feeling like an asset to a "guild".

Some people don't much care for it, but here's hoping we get some kind of player housing at launch. A base, an apartment, whatever. It's just another detail that distracts you from the monotony that is constant missions or grinding.

[SBeaudway]

Or skills... I am still hopeing one day a MMO will be MMORPG.

[hermit000]

having meaningful skills in teh game would be a nice change, hopefully if they do impliment skills they avoid excessivly broad skills like detective, scientist or anything like that. narrow the skills down so a skill is a skill in one area.

[Arrowsmith]

I think that there will be alot of skills left on the wayside that are much more effective in the table top game as part of the exposition of the story via the GM. ( Prob KS Skills in general) alot of other skills like Martial arts will effectively replace the subtleties like KS: Kenpo.

[Jessie_Tell]

We're really at a prime oppurtunity here for the game to really touch on the world outside of heroes busting faces in. CoX has touched on things like the Invention System, and the Base System, but these have just been addons to the core game, something that was lumped on rather than integrated into the very core. With a whole new system comes whole new oppurtunities.

I'd absolutely LOVE to see the same level of character depth in the HERO system brought into the actual game. Not just Perks, but weaknesses as well. I'm a roleplayer by nature and I love giving my characters on CoX quirks and weaknesses that they have to overcome themselves, as well as skills that aren't really relevent to the game itself.

Take Jessie Tell for example, Jessie isn't a smart character, not in the ways people would classify smart. She doesn't have skills in computers, or research, or patience for reading or anything of that nature. She dropped out of school in Junior High so she doesn't really have much of an education. Instead she spent most of her time training her body and her skills in hand to hand combat, which makes her a tough person. Now on a skill base she might not be good with all the technological mumbo jumbo, but she is fairly streetwise. She knows how to pick pockets, she has contacts in every urban enviroment she visits, and she can generally feel the heartbeat of a city and how to manipulate it.

Heroes come from all walks of life really, so it'd be great to see the system embrace that sort of character depth that could give bonuses and penalties on certain aspects.

[General_Maximus]

I like the idea of having a system where you have around 5 attributes each which can have up to 10 points assigned to them, but you don't get enough points to max all of them. These would be set during character creation and wouldn't be changeable by anything after that, except maybe a respec. You could have some give a non-combat bonus like the aforementioned Wealth giving ingame currency every level, as well as combat related ones like Strength making melee attacks hit harder, or Stamina increasing health/energy regen, etc.

Also what Freedom Force has where characters with over a certain number of Strength points can rip a streetlight out of the ground and smack someone in the face with it.

[guyhey]

I want to go on the record that normal MMORPG crafting systems bore the tears out of me. Additionally COH invention system, and WW are really really fun for me and my wife. I didn't think it was possible and even though it was tacked on I love COH loot. Granted it's not perfect and could be better.

I have a friend who played EQ, he decided to get one of his crafting skills up, I went over to his house every Saturday for a month, I would play games on his second computer while he worked on his crafting skill. He would spend 8 hours a day every Saturday I was there, and in that month he didn't get his crafting to where he wanted it. In fact he started working on that skill long before I ever started coming over and he worked on it long after I stopped. Not only is that way too much time but the crafting system was repetitive and not even interesting the first time you did it.

Now skills can be different than crafting. For example a skill can be photographer. Think Peter Parker for flavor and Pokemon snap for the nintendo 64 for game play.

[Beef_Cake]

Although a loot based game can be a good thing, I found it not so good when COX became a loot based game. I was so use to giving people things and others doing the same. But when since the introduction of the economy, I find people turn from giving and helping to nothing but greed money hungry heroes and villains.

I know this is standard when a game has a economy, but for me I just don't see the concept behind it. I'm just glad the group I am with stayed as they were and still helped people out when and if they could. So it will be interesting to see how this game handles the loot system as well.

[Trike]

I'm concerned that the focus on "action MMO" will preclude the use of skills. CoH is entertaining to be sure, but it does come across as one-dimensional. It's all about combat. If Champions Online offers more of the same, it won't hold my interest for long.

The flip side of that, however, is that any skills or crafting that are put into the game need to be mostly free from the grind. The scenario guyhey talks about above is the worst-case scenario, as far as I'm concerned. I also hated the crafting in WoW for similar reasons. I spent a ton of time learning recipes, gathering and buying items and then crafting myself an improved chest plate armor. And literally that same day I got a drop from a critter that was a better piece of armor. I felt like I'd completely wasted my time.

Skills and other non-combat things need to be value-added propositions, not just pointless time sinks.

[guyhey]

Although a loot based game can be a good thing, I found it not so good when COX became a loot based game. I was so use to giving people things and others doing the same. But when since the introduction of the economy, I find people turn from giving and helping to nothing but greed money hungry heroes and villains.

I know this is standard when a game has a economy, but for me I just don't see the concept behind it. I'm just glad the group I am with stayed as they were and still helped people out when and if they could. So it will be interesting to see how this game handles the loot system as well.

I've seen both since COH added loot. The super group I am in has kind of turned me off with their attitude regarding loot. They say they want to help people but the guide lines they've created seem to leech from their members more than help them.

At the same time I still see some people being very sharing with their influence. In a way it helps us see who the real heroes are.

[guyhey]

Skills and other non-combat things need to be value-added propositions, not just pointless time sinks.

Well said.

Also my original comment about photography being like Pokemon snap was a bit short sighted. It should, at least, be like Bioshock. Actually there is a lot you could do with a skill that is essentially taking screen shots, however having it be like Bioshock at the minimum would be enough to make me happy.

[mase85]

One thing I know about the Champions pen and paper game is that you can spend points to make your character have non-powered based attributes, like wealth and what not. Any word on it those sorts of things will be put into the game.

One suggestion for how wealth could work, a player with that attribute could start with a little extra cash, or what the in game resource is, and each time they level they get a bonus. It could be a like a per diem, but a per level instead.

That would be cool as long as theres not a small cap to how many points you can get or how many powers/skills you can have, in which case that wouldnt garner much need for me. If i could fit it then cool. In a perfect world you could end up with every power available but haha i really dont want to toot my own horn on that because i myself wouldnt like a bunch of SUPER supers running around.

[Doc_Boy]

So say CO has Bricks, Martial Artists, Mentalists and Speedsters.

I pick Speedster and then I get a skill choice, like Street Rat. A Street Rat is street smart and knows his way around a city such as hidden passages or where to get valuable information. For example shortcuts in the city are visible on a Street Rats map or hes faster at obtaining mission data.

Or I could choose the Wealthy skill which makes me a popular figure around town and gives an inherent bonus to the money I receive/earn during my Champions career

Or the Detective skill which lets you stumble apon valuable information or loot more often.


Ect, ect...

[guyhey]

So say CO has Bricks, Martial Artists, Mentalists and Speedsters.

I pick Speedster and then I get a skill choice, like Street Rat. A Street Rat is street smart and knows his way around a city such as hidden passages or where to get valuable information. For example shortcuts in the city are visible on a Street Rats map or hes faster at obtaining mission data.

Or I could choose the Wealthy skill which makes me a popular figure around town and gives an inherent bonus to the money I receive/earn during my Champions career

Or the Detective skill which lets you stumble apon valuable information or loot more often.


Ect, ect...

Those are all great suggestions and I think they'd improve the flavor of the game by a lot while having actual game mechanics bonuses as well. The one thing I'd be nervous about is the Wealthy skill giving an inherent bonus, they'd have to be especially careful about balancing it if they handled it that way. Giving a per diem ensures that people don't exploit a wealthy character's skill.

[SilverStreak]

Although a loot based game can be a good thing, I found it not so good when COX became a loot based game. I was so use to giving people things and others doing the same. But when since the introduction of the economy, I find people turn from giving and helping to nothing but greed money hungry heroes and villains.

I know this is standard when a game has a economy, but for me I just don't see the concept behind it. I'm just glad the group I am with stayed as they were and still helped people out when and if they could. So it will be interesting to see how this game handles the loot system as well.

I agree with ya, Beef Cake!

Back in the day, it was a lot of fun when we'd have "newbie" events, and a buncha 50's (well, *I* wasn't 50 yet last time one of these happened, but I did it anyway :)) would stand around in Atlas or Galaxy, just handing out Inf to the low-level supers there. And, of course, everybody would get into the RP of it - more experienced heroes helping out those just starting their careers. You don't see that kind of thing anymore. :(

[SilverStreak]

Anyway, back on topic:

Yea, sign me up on the bandwagon here! I definately want non-combat oriented skills! The more the better!

I thought the Super-Secret Non-Combat System that CoH ALMOST introduced was a great idea - from the information they had leaked about it while it was in development, it was to include Detective, Communication, Scholarly, and Invention skills. These sound like a great starting point - and hopefully they've figured out a way to incorporate them into Champs. Something even more extensive would be even better, of course.

[guyhey]

I agree with ya, Beef Cake!

Back in the day, it was a lot of fun when we'd have "newbie" events, and a buncha 50's (well, *I* wasn't 50 yet last time one of these happened, but I did it anyway :)) would stand around in Atlas or Galaxy, just handing out Inf to the low-level supers there. And, of course, everybody would get into the RP of it - more experienced heroes helping out those just starting their careers. You don't see that kind of thing anymore. :(

Perhaps it depends on the server you are on, I know I still see high level characters being generous in Atlas on my server. Sadly I have seen a decline in people being heroic since influence actually started mattering, but overall I think we are better off now that influence matters. For the first part it separates the truly heroic from those who are giving away something that means nothing, and secondly having a real economy is fun. Finally my level 50 has something to do.

[Aceldama]

FINALLY.

Though grinding out influence and loot has become old, too.

I'd be doing mothership raids daily if the playerbase weren't so tiny. There just aren't enough people.

/signed on the non-combat skrillz, though.

It takes away from the monotony of constant combat and adds depth to the game.

[Doc_Boy]

Those are all great suggestions and I think they'd improve the flavor of the game by a lot while having actual game mechanics bonuses as well. The one thing I'd be nervous about is the Wealthy skill giving an inherent bonus, they'd have to be especially careful about balancing it if they handled it that way. Giving a per diem ensures that people don't exploit a wealthy character's skill.

Well yeah I know, think a Wealthy skill could work as long as they fix the kinks out. I don't know, maybe instead of earning extra money while fighting you get more money for the mission bonus. Also if you were to put say points into the Wealthy skill it would lower your combat skill. I mean if you put 10 points into Wealthy and you only have 12 then you would be significantly gimped in the combat department.

[Aceldama]

Well yeah I know, think a Wealthy skill could work as long as they fix the kinks out. I don't know, maybe instead of earning extra money while fighting you get more money for the mission bonus. Also if you were to put say points into the Wealthy skill it would lower your combat skill. I mean if you put 10 points into Wealthy and you only have 12 then you would be significantly gimped in the combat department.

Or they could make a skill that acted in reverse. Instead of earning more money for fights and missions (which is exploitable, IMO), you could get discounts at NPC stores.

[Doc_Boy]

I guess but that doesn't sound nearly as :cool:

[guyhey]

Well yeah I know, think a Wealthy skill could work as long as they fix the kinks out. I don't know, maybe instead of earning extra money while fighting you get more money for the mission bonus. Also if you were to put say points into the Wealthy skill it would lower your combat skill. I mean if you put 10 points into Wealthy and you only have 12 then you would be significantly gimped in the combat department.

That's a good point, the points need to come out of something. I'd hate to see super groups or whatever they will be called in this game, making wealthy characters just to farm extra cash though. ;) Unless the devs don't mind the idea of there being benefactors for super groups, which actually could be interesting if done right.

[Invincible]

I think COX really dropped the ball on Inventions / Loot. It marked a shift from friendly 'players helping players' to 'what's in it for me' play styles. Not very Heroic. Certainly not very Super Heroic.

Skills should have been so much more than COX eventually introduced. Inventions should have been a sub-set skill that was supported by other skills like Arcane Lore and Scientific Knowledges. The system could have been complex and a game within the game as players explored and added new dimensions to their characters. Instead it became just another grind fest.

I really hope that there is a Non-Combat Skills and Enhancements segment in this game and that it is supported by and in turn supports new styles of missions and game play other than "Look...its Doc Destroyer....Blast 'im". Say you accept a mission where an NPC is kidnapped. You could use a Detective Skill Set to track down leads and find the location of the Victim. There could be several missions leading through that arc until you get to the Rescue / Combat phase. But wait....maybe you are more of a Stealthy type and if there were a Stealth Skill Set you could sneak into the hideout and disable the baddies without a full blown brawl (ala Batman in certain issues).

There are lots of avenues here...lot of potential that COX never came close to tapping. I hope that Cryptic has learned this lesson too.

[Sylph_Knight]

hopefully we actually get stats, like body intelect etc, amd get to buy them to the levels we want to in the point build. Its always nice to think of a character as something more than a bunch of powers. Give a baseline for normal human in the stat categories, and then let us decide how 'super' we want to be, do we go batman and be peak human in our stats, with lots of skillls and gizmos, or do we go the oposote end as superman and bulk up on powewr with way above human stats, but limit the skills. I miss games that had stats and skills we could adjust ourselves instead of being told all heros are generic aside from their powers.

I have to disagree on the stats issue. It's less balancing in my opinion (and alot harder to program) than giving everyone the same base stats and having them build up their abilities via "Powers and Perks". Certain Perks, like Brutish, could increase your base strength, and increases it with tiers. Powers, I've always imagined, are superhuman feats that are enhanced by a person's base perks. Someone with a clever mind can take better advantage of remote telekenesis (to baffle their opponents) than the most intelligent brain in the universe. Look at Dr. Aeon from City of Heroes: so superhumanly intelligent and so superhumanly stupid all at the same time. I feel a Perks system would be more balancing and easier to impliment than base stats. They'd essentually be Powers that enhance other Powers that rely on those aspects of your character.

[Hythian]

Paraphrasing a post I made in the Non-Power Character Improvement (aka Skills) (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=1462) thead I started before I knew about this thread...

I would like to see skills basically do at least two things:

(A) An alternative to being spoon-fed missions by a contact. Basically the skills operating as a sort of prod to get you to start a mission that doesn't have you being nothing but some contacts thug. Letting you track down and find new content based upon your characters skill set and design. Basically being a method for heroes to 'stumble across' villainous plans, just like they always seem to in comic books.

(B) A way to get access to additional skill-oriented missions. While someone without the skill would still be able to complete he first mission perfectly fine, someone with the skill would find clues to lead them in to another new mission. I think this could be balanced simply by making sure there was an even distribution of skill-based 'bonus' missions across all of the available skills.

Here are a couple examples of what I mean...

Say you have a Computer skill...
(A) You could login at a computer terminal and find suspicious data transfers going on, encrypted communications going to an abandoned warehouse of some sort.
(B) After the mission is over, you find the laptop / mainframe the villains were using and are able to hack into it to gain more information on their secret plan leading to another mission.

If you have a Streetwise skill...
(A) You could be doing a normal street patrol, beating up street-level villains when you realize one is wearing a new gang-sign you haven't seen before. Following up gang tags and symbols (glowies in the form of graffiti for example) you come to the tenement building they are using as a base.
(B) After the mission is over, you realize that the base is located on top of a city sewer junction. You know smugglers occasionally use the sewers to move contraband into the city, maybe you should go rough up some of those smugglers and find out more...

If you have a Gadgeteer / Technology skill...
(A) One of your gadgets starts picking up some strange interference as you enter a zone, their must be some new strange piece of technology that has gone active nearby! You could track it down by moving about, and playing a sort of game of 'Hot and Cold' until you find the buliding the signal is coming from
(B) After you stop the dastardly evil-doers, you discover that the technological device they were about to activate doesn't actually do anything close to what they thought it would do! Being able to understand what all the parts do, you realize it wasn't a mind control device but actually a bomb, a bomb that could only have been built by the target of your next mission...

[Discord]

/signed on with non-combat-related skillz plz!

Awesome idea, imho; as myself and just about every mask in these forums have stated, we're sick of all the combat. Give us something ELSE to do, instead of just bashing skulls.

[guyhey]

/signed on with non-combat-related skillz plz!

Awesome idea, imho; as myself and just about every mask in these forums have stated, we're sick of all the combat. Give us something ELSE to do, instead of just bashing skulls.

...or Hellions, sorry I couldn't resist.

[Malaclypse]

Oh, yes, please! Always makes me sad to see fewer and not more things to do with and to your character in creating depth. Things don't always have to feed directly into combat to be worth spending a little dev time on, but I can see why fluff gets low priority at the start.

I hope they plan it out decently and get the hooks in.

[Discord]

/signed on with non-combat-related skillz plz!

Awesome idea, imho; as myself and just about every mask in these forums have stated, we're sick of all the combat. Give us something ELSE to do, instead of just bashing skulls.

...or Hellions, sorry I couldn't resist.

Mwah hah ha! I knew someone would take the bait! U R NAO MAH STR4YT M4N! :D

[Malaclypse]

Paraphrasing a post I made in the Non-Power Character Improvement (aka Skills) (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=1462) thead I started before I knew about this thread...

I would like to see skills basically do at least two things:

(A) An alternative to being spoon-fed missions by a contact. Basically the skills operating as a sort of prod to get you to start a mission that doesn't have you being nothing but some contacts thug. Letting you track down and find new content based upon your characters skill set and design. Basically being a method for heroes to 'stumble across' villainous plans, just like they always seem to in comic books.

(B) A way to get access to additional skill-oriented missions. While someone without the skill would still be able to complete he first mission perfectly fine, someone with the skill would find clues to lead them in to another new mission. I think this could be balanced simply by making sure there was an even distribution of skill-based 'bonus' missions across all of the available skills.

Here are a couple examples of what I mean...

Say you have a Computer skill...
(A) You could login at a computer terminal and find suspicious data transfers going on, encrypted communications going to an abandoned warehouse of some sort.
(B) After the mission is over, you find the laptop / mainframe the villains were using and are able to hack into it to gain more information on their secret plan leading to another mission.

If you have a Streetwise skill...
(A) You could be doing a normal street patrol, beating up street-level villains when you realize one is wearing a new gang-sign you haven't seen before. Following up gang tags and symbols (glowies in the form of graffiti for example) you come to the tenement building they are using as a base.
(B) After the mission is over, you realize that the base is located on top of a city sewer junction. You know smugglers occasionally use the sewers to move contraband into the city, maybe you should go rough up some of those smugglers and find out more...

If you have a Gadgeteer / Technology skill...
(A) One of your gadgets starts picking up some strange interference as you enter a zone, their must be some new strange piece of technology that has gone active nearby! You could track it down by moving about, and playing a sort of game of 'Hot and Cold' until you find the buliding the signal is coming from
(B) After you stop the dastardly evil-doers, you discover that the technological device they were about to activate doesn't actually do anything close to what they thought it would do! Being able to understand what all the parts do, you realize it wasn't a mind control device but actually a bomb, a bomb that could only have been built by the target of your next mission...

Extremely well thought out and relevant stuff. I was going to write my thoughts about these issues, but you've pretty much done it for me. Now take off the Psi-Core helmet and get out of my brain!

[Kinestron]

All good.

Like you folks said, I hope there's more to do than just punch unfortunate faces.

Crafting would be phenomenal from the outset. What makes MMOs stand out nowadays is how they do things differently, so let's hope we see some innovation there. Giving every character the same ability to craft ala CoX takes away from being unique or feeling like an asset to a "guild".

Some people don't much care for it, but here's hoping we get some kind of player housing at launch. A base, an apartment, whatever. It's just another detail that distracts you from the monotony that is constant missions or grinding.

Agreed, a small distraction here or there helps keep the combat fresh. Here's an idea, you actually have to play a non-combat mission as an alter-ego to gain clues so you can find your enemies hideout. I know it's been shot-down before but maybe some lesser Sims type action. Getting to work on time(using a Travel power), schmoozing the boss(using a power like Starfox), discovering the dishonest employee(xray vision into his locker to see the stolen merchandise), etc.

And the more I write this the more unrealistic it seems. Fine, just give me monitor duty in the orbiting satellite and I can blast purse-snatchers with the 500 GigaWatt laser.

[Unassailable]

I think the key to making Non-Combat attributes fun involves taking whatever characters/heroes do in their downtime and making that fun. If you can make downtime fun, and even better, rewarding, you have a game where you are having fun 24/7 instead of rushing from fun to fun as best you can.

Donwtime Acitivities might include:

Getting Missions
Finding the Location of Missions
Travelling to Missions
Acquiring Skills/Powers
Getting Storyline details
Mission Recovery (healing self, stopping long-term effects)
Restocking consumables
Long-term buffing
Finding a Team
Getting that last bit of extra XP to get the next thing you need to go to the mission even more powerful...

It doesn't take a genius to see how some non-combat skills can turn these mundane errands into gameplay. The nixed CoH system Detective-Scholarly-yadda-yadda seemed like it could play towards this a bit...

Detective/Persuassion/Interoggation/Computer skills:
Getting Missions, Finding the Locations of Missions, Getting Storyline information, getting that last bit of XP

For those who are investigating as many, MANY superheroes do from time to time, and some do exclusively, this could be a great thing. Not only would you have access to a wider variety of missions than anyone else, since you had the option to go find new ones whenever you wanted, but, if taken to another level, you could even become a 'contact' for other heroes, and make money off of your "mission generation" skills. Regardless it'd add a whole lot to the storyline, if you were creeping around abandoned warehouses and apartments getting this stuff instead of standing in front of an oddly-static 'contact.' Also, taking up 'unsolved mysteries' from the Police Department or other agency could be an awesome way to get an XP boost that might put you over the edge if need be while your friends are nursing their wounds.

As far as gameplay, it could be relatively simple hit the right things in the right order (loot, warrant, then crook) or perhaps a stealth-like dodging detection area followed by a simple picture puzzle. It could be, time and writing permitted, more literal and actual clues to the storyline would be scattered and it'd be up to the player to collect all of them and the character would put them together so that the player could proceed.

If you want to REALLY make this a non-combat (and thus secondary class) you'd give it not only XP bonuses, making it a viable playstyle, but you'd also allow it to open up powerful weaknesses for given villain groups and bosses, making a detective characater a valuable part of the fight, as they are capable of dealing a single devastating blow to the villain.

Conversation/High Society/Business Skills/Linguists/Orators/Area Knowledge people/Trainers
Acquiring Skills/Powers, Restocing Consumables, Mission Recovery, Long term buffing

So getting ready for the mission has a whole thing to it as well. For those people who like to talk or just 'know stuff' what if they levelled up their contact field, basically. What if they had a scientist they could go to, like Superman, or a Police Detective resource like Spider-Man. They could go to these people and get stuff quicker, cheaper and more effective than others who just have the basic skill. This would be the economy-hog who could then trade stuff for a profit if they think they want to spend their day/life doing such things.

To add challenge you could add a quiz-like conversation tree, where players may need to choose the right things in order to advance and get the very best out of their action, but I think such profit and stuff-minded players would be content to grind away, knowing the surety of their reward. Perhaps just giving these special ubercontacts paths to follow would give the fun of having to track where certain people are at given points in the day.

Of course, making this a viable playstyle involves giving microXP for successful 'transactions' but it'd still be cool to be the guy who "knows a guy" or simply be able to walk into a place and make a deal for the team and have the salesman throw in some matching trinkets. Another fun distraction would be simply going to a trainer and working out to get XP. It'd be a fun way to make fun of grinding as well as a nice distraction for fans of their otherwise uber-lucrative playstyle. And if you really want to make this one awesome, add access to special areas with their own rewards.

Travelling to Missions and Finding a Team
Basically speak for themselves. They'd be travel powers and I think there should be several non-combat skills that lead to quick and effortless finding of teammates, perhaps even auto-teaming of some sort where you are automatically given the same mission as compatible persons. There are other non-superheroic actions, like being a reporter, photographer, air force pilot or military scientist that do little towards downtime activities, but they might have their own benefits perhaps, and even conversions of little fun addictive mini-games/puzzles to do if you sincerely need a break from combat.

But perhaps that's something you all should discuss.

[Malaclypse]

Is there a way to quote the sig?
__________________
Things to remember:
1) This is NOT CoH.
2) Champions IS older than you are.
3) You can be a rational, informed, useful contributor to this forum. Try it.

You dear, sweet person for thinking of the second one there. Not even close, but thank you anyway!

I really like the downtime notions - I've been slowly putting together my own 'What would I do if I were building one of these' for decades. Yes, decades, we put together MUDs on multi-line modems and it was tough! That one is one I've been wrestling with for a while, and there's some very very potentially profitable places for groundbreaking work there.

It's good to see people pondering some of the root assumptions of these games - what is gametime? what is downtime? How do I handle long-term effort, or offline effort?

I like the notion of persistent or long-duration buffs almost to the point of temporary powers. Thanks for all the interesting concepts to mull over!

[Unassailable]

You dear, sweet person for thinking of the second one there. Not even close, but thank you anyway!

I really like the downtime notions - I've been slowly putting together my own 'What would I do if I were building one of these' for decades. Yes, decades, we put together MUDs on multi-line modems and it was tough! That one is one I've been wrestling with for a while, and there's some very very potentially profitable places for groundbreaking work there.

It's good to see people pondering some of the root assumptions of these games - what is gametime? what is downtime? How do I handle long-term effort, or offline effort?

I like the notion of persistent or long-duration buffs almost to the point of temporary powers. Thanks for all the interesting concepts to mull over!


Thank you Malaclypse. :D

I'm really hoping people who are old enough for #2 not to be true will realize the list isn't for them. Cuz otherwise, well... you can imagine the angry smilies and 'speak for yourself's that will be headed my way.

Regardless... my new mindset on these issues came after playing the game Bully from Rockstar. It's billed as GTA in High School, but it is, more than anything and school sim, with the ability to be late to class and everything. And unlike ACTUAL high school, it was a LOT of fun. Going to class was just minigames, but even other than that, all these silly little mundane activities and the storyline and... real solid fun out of something profoundly horrid and almost exclusively boring. And if that weren't enough I got addicted to this mini-App called Diner Dash, and boy! Waiting tables is also not fun in real life, but I was hooked.

If it can be done with High School or being a Waitress, then surely it wouldn't take much work to turn just about any activity into a fun mini-game distraction. If integrated into a cohesive world, well... you've got something.

[Hythian]

If it can be done with High School or being a Waitress, then surely it wouldn't take much work to turn just about any activity into a fun mini-game distraction. If integrated into a cohesive world, well... you've got something.

I think to put what you are saying in another way is...

The game should have more to do in it that is fun then just the combat.

If combat is the only gameplay mechanic and the only way the game is fun, then you have a game where more then half of your playtime is spent doing nothing other then waiting for the next fun bit to happen.

Your suggestions for making that 'time between' fun have been pretty interesting. There are so many 'non-fun' bits in a typical MMO that could be made so much more interesting by making them actually 'be something' and not just the 'bit between somethings'.

Oh, and sign me up for the 'Older then Champions' and 'Used to be a MUDLib Coder' clubs.

[Malaclypse]

I think to put what you are saying in another way is...

The game should have more to do in it that is fun then just the combat.

If combat is the only gameplay mechanic and the only way the game is fun, then you have a game where more then half of your playtime is spent doing nothing other then waiting for the next fun bit to happen.

Your suggestions for making that 'time between' fun have been pretty interesting. There are so many 'non-fun' bits in a typical MMO that could be made so much more interesting by making them actually 'be something' and not just the 'bit between somethings'.

Oh, and sign me up for the 'Older then Champions' and 'Used to be a MUDLib Coder' clubs.

Hey, how about this - we can say what noncombat activities we most enjoyed in other games!

EQ/DAOC/LotRO (not CoX) - exploring new places, seeing the sites
CoX - seeing what nooks and crannies I could get myself into, looking for unique view perspectives
EQ - (this is a big one) trying to use illusion and deception to get into places that would normally get me killed
CoH - randomly stopping to deter street crime, coming up with heroic things to say
(all games) - crafting to see if finally someone, somewhere will design a trade system worth spending time on
(same) Stopping to render assistance and advice to folks

[Invincible]

Yeah.... /sign me up for Older Than Champions too. Somewhere I still have a dog eared first edition.

I think its very important that there be "downtime actions" or "non-combat fun" built into the system. I mean, MMOs have become stale in the "Combat" , "Moving to the next Combat" or "Grinding 'XYZ' for the next Combat" sense. LoTRO spent time and funding coming up with their Music System, which has a fairly large following and entire Guilds dedicated to a 'minor' facet of the game. It gives them something to do other than run "Instance X" again.

If Champions has a good non-combat system it will add a lot of fun and options for players who want something other than "Combat" "Crafting" or "Loot Grinding" which is the main staple in MMOs today. The game that comes out that breaks that mold....that goes that extra mile and gives players another option to advance themselves and enjoy themselves CAN be the new WoW.

Is this the game?

Tune in True Believers.

[Hythian]

Hey, how about this - we can say what noncombat activities we most enjoyed in other games!

Heh. The only addition I can think off-hand to add to your list are:

(CoX) Standing on bits of scenery and striking poses and firing off auras / self-buff powers and see how long until someone stops and asks me what I am doing.

(CoH) Taking my Energy Blaster to Atlas Park with a Grav Controller friend and try fling Hellions on to the top of Atlas's globe (never did manage it, though I think we did surprise a few people having costume contests when a newly dead Hellion landed amid them).

(CoX) Playing with the costume creator. Seriously. That costume creator was more fun then the actual gameplay in some MMOs is. Just to see how crazy an outfit you can come up with.

And looking at this list... Yeah, these items seem to be mostly us as players running out of fun things to do (we do get tired of combat, combat, combat after a while) and trying, desperately, to manufacture more fun for ourselves.

[Invincible]

Hey, how about this - we can say what noncombat activities we most enjoyed in other games!

EQ/DAOC/LotRO (not CoX) - exploring new places, seeing the sites
CoX - seeing what nooks and crannies I could get myself into, looking for unique view perspectives
EQ - (this is a big one) trying to use illusion and deception to get into places that would normally get me killed
CoH - randomly stopping to deter street crime, coming up with heroic things to say
(all games) - crafting to see if finally someone, somewhere will design a trade system worth spending time on
(same) Stopping to render assistance and advice to folks

All Games - Exploring. Crafting (not in COH though....hate it)
COX - Flying / Jumping around Zones and just looking around. Random crime fighting.
SWG - Cantina parties
AC - Getting myself into places I had no business going to see if I could get out.
LoTRO - Searching for "Signature Sites". Music.

I can honestly say I disliked the "Economies" in every case. No one has gotten it right.

[Unassailable]

I just had a kooky idea.

Model the HERO-based Skills system on the CoX combat system.


Let people pick from Skill Archetypes. Detective. Scientist. Scholar. Martial Artist. Businessperson.
Use "Concentration" as an endurance bar for skills.
Allow people to interact with terminals, NPCs, devices, items and etc the same way they interact with enemies in CoX... spamming "attacks" and waiting for results.
Model Information on "Damage" and instead of animating a fight, give players relevant text, data, or instructions.
Additional visual cues would be simplified readouts and graphics along with cinematic angles on the conversations.
False or unknown information would be attacks on your character, and acquired information would be like damage to your opponent. Affecting NPCs (including physically) would be like buffing while getting resources would be like control powers.
Different "powersets" some of which apply to different ATs, would include computers, interrogation, experiments, bureaucracy, contacts, knowledge... most of the stuff from the Hero system.
Allow people to multi-AT... they just have to buy the skills.
To be relevant to combat, and a sustainable playstyle, players who finish off all available skill "opponents" get XP, their combat mission tweaked (ie more easy mobs), new content opened (ie a new mission string), resources usually acquired through purely combat or some combination of the above.


It's something that has already proven fun, even though it's been repetitive in the past. I'm thinking that, in combination with combat, it could be interesting, and since it's already been, for the most part, designed and proven, it's a bit easier to implement than translating puzzle pirates.

[guyhey]

I didn't play EQ2 but I was told EQ2 crafting was a lot like this. If that's true they'd have to be careful because from what I heard EQ2 crafting wasn't fun and I had a friend that found a way to automate it with macros. Anything that can be automated with macros hopefully goes outside the their design goals. ;)

I just had a kooky idea.

Model the HERO-based Skills system on the CoX combat system.

[LIST]
Let people pick from Skill Archetypes. Detective. Scientist. Scholar. Martial Artist. Businessperson.
Use "Concentration" as an endurance bar for skills.
Allow people to interact with terminals, NPCs, devices, items and etc the same way they interact with enemies in CoX... spamming "attacks" and waiting for results.
Model Information on "Damage" and instead of animating a fight, give players relevant text, data, or instructions.
Additional visual cues would be simplified readouts and graphics along with cinematic angles on the conversations.
...
It's something that has already proven fun, even though it's been repetitive in the past. I'm thinking that, in combination with combat, it could be interesting, and since it's already been, for the most part, designed and proven, it's a bit easier to implement than translating puzzle pirates.

[Malaclypse]

I just had a kooky idea.

Model the HERO-based Skills system on the CoX combat system.


Let people pick from Skill Archetypes. Detective. Scientist. Scholar. Martial Artist. Businessperson.
Use "Concentration" as an endurance bar for skills.
Allow people to interact with terminals, NPCs, devices, items and etc the same way they interact with enemies in CoX... spamming "attacks" and waiting for results.
Model Information on "Damage" and instead of animating a fight, give players relevant text, data, or instructions.
Additional visual cues would be simplified readouts and graphics along with cinematic angles on the conversations.
False or unknown information would be attacks on your character, and acquired information would be like damage to your opponent. Affecting NPCs (including physically) would be like buffing while getting resources would be like control powers.
Different "powersets" some of which apply to different ATs, would include computers, interrogation, experiments, bureaucracy, contacts, knowledge... most of the stuff from the Hero system.
Allow people to multi-AT... they just have to buy the skills.
To be relevant to combat, and a sustainable playstyle, players who finish off all available skill "opponents" get XP, their combat mission tweaked (ie more easy mobs), new content opened (ie a new mission string), resources usually acquired through purely combat or some combination of the above.


It's something that has already proven fun, even though it's been repetitive in the past. I'm thinking that, in combination with combat, it could be interesting, and since it's already been, for the most part, designed and proven, it's a bit easier to implement than translating puzzle pirates.

I applaud your very inventive and delightfully skewed notion. I have to admit that I've played around with Hero a bit to fit it to this book or that, but never to another game. Amusingly perverse concept.

[keth]

Nice thread. Some interesting ideas and concepts floating out there.

One thing I thought of early on, though I don't think they would implement this (just based on other things that have been said) would be to have two character classes ala GW. Your first class would be you "super" class and your second class would be Detective, Inventor or whatever. The idea of very specific skills is interesting but, IMO, they won't do that. Whatever non-combat skill system (or whatever they do) will be rather broad, IMHO.

One thing I'd be interesed in seeing would be some type of information sharing. For example, let's say your "Detective" stumbles upon some clue or lead. Let's say this clue/lead opens up a sidequest that the Detective either can't, or doesn't want to, pursue. He could go to some location, like CoH's long neglected Info terminals, and upload it there for someone else to grab. This would alleviate non-skill X players from missing out on content, would allow characters to info share even after they've logged out, and avoids things like the WoW trade channel which zips by so quickly you barely have time to read the posting. The "Detective" could even receive a small reward if someone takes his clue. I'm really just thinking as I type here, there are a lot of ways to implement this.

That being said, I think we should all bear in mind not to expect everything we want right at launch. By the time CO comes out, CoX will have 5 years of additonal content, patches and what have you under its belt.

As an aside, LotR gets a bonus point from me for having a toon go to the top of a hill at night and look at the stars. No other game has managed anything like that for me.

keth

[guyhey]

Those are some ideas with possibility, they could be really fun if done right.

Another thing they could try is have an information market, where people can buy and sell clues. Not only would PCs be able to buy and sell but NPCs would be able to as well. It would be a way to ensure that anyone can get the clue, but buying from an NPC would likely cost more.

have two character classes ala GW. Your first class would be you "super" class and your second class would be Detective, Inventor or whatever.

One thing I'd be interesed in seeing would be some type of information sharing. For example, let's say your "Detective" stumbles upon some clue or lead...He could go to some location, like CoH's long neglected Info terminals, and upload it there for someone else to grab. This would alleviate non-skill X players from missing out on content

[NotThatBright]

There are three underlying points in this thread that are making me drool:

1) Player plot involvement - Where RP meets Min/Max. Being able to scour for clues in fun mini-games could then translate to being a known "source" on the server. By adding communication methods for transfer of these clues it allows for player notoriety to be achieved. More than just a title.

2) Mini-games - When you look at some of the more popular downtime components of other games you see Minigames: WoW fishing is one of the most famous.

3) Secondary economy - Wheeling and dealing, combined with good writing and your created nemesis, opens up yet another downtime minigame.

Something to consider is how clues are used. Finding one clue should not always yield a mission. In fact, the economy notion becomes more relevant when multiple pieces are needed to flush out a mission.

Clue A) You hear of suspicious activity at the docks
Clue B) GloboCom has recently experienced a huge influx of cash investments
Clue C) A pier inspector is found dead with an empty GloboCom stationary envelope on him

Once these clues are assembled, two choices are revealed - Investigate GloboCom headquarters, Dig around at the docks.

[guyhey]

2) Mini-games - When you look at some of the more popular downtime components of other games you see Minigames: WoW fishing is one of the most famous.


Eek wow style fishing as a mini-game wouldn't work for me. I found wow fishing to be a poor mini-game, if you'd call it that. However I do love the idea of mini-games with alternate rewards. All and all I agree with the rest of your post that I didn't quote.

[Doctor_Why]

One of the things I've been trying to get going for years is much more interaction with the surroundings in MMOs. And this is one of the ways to do it.

To me, a 'glowy' is usually a failure. Almost every glowy that exists is there because it's shorthand for something else that should be done with skills or powers. Where is the artifact in the room? What is the combination to the safe? Are the secret plans on this computer?

And since nobody is likely to know everything, it gives a good excuse to invite someone along or at least consult with them. I'd love to log on and have someone say, "I'm glad you showed up. I found something weird and was hoping you could tell me what it is." I know people who would set up shop and be everyone's go-to guy for information.

[Malaclypse]

One of the things I've been trying to get going for years is much more interaction with the surroundings in MMOs. And this is one of the ways to do it.

To me, a 'glowy' is usually a failure. Almost every glowy that exists is there because it's shorthand for something else that should be done with skills or powers. Where is the artifact in the room? What is the combination to the safe? Are the secret plans on this computer?

And since nobody is likely to know everything, it gives a good excuse to invite someone along or at least consult with them. I'd love to log on and have someone say, "I'm glad you showed up. I found something weird and was hoping you could tell me what it is." I know people who would set up shop and be everyone's go-to guy for information.

Yeah - search for clues with forensics, or scan with super-vision, or use supersmell, or perhaps open every box at superspeed? Watch the place from hiding, seek within a thug's mind - or intimidate them into telling!

Perhaps you have a sidekick or know an NPC who's good at following up with those sorts of details if you aren't! Or, well, perhaps you're not into that sort of superheroics, and concentrate on patrolling the streets for thugs and challenging the king-pins to duke it out with you by busting all of their underlings, interrupting their illicit activities. Goad them into sending someone after you, track those back to them, or get them to come after you themselves!

[yrtalien]

Paraphrasing a post I made in the [URL="http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=1462"]
I would like to see skills basically do at least two things:

(A) An alternative to being spoon-fed missions by a contact. Basically the skills operating as a sort of prod to get you to start a mission that doesn't have you being nothing but some contacts thug. Letting you track down and find new content based upon your characters skill set and design. Basically being a method for heroes to 'stumble across' villainous plans, just like they always seem to in comic books.

(B) A way to get access to additional skill-oriented missions. While someone without the skill would still be able to complete he first mission perfectly fine, someone with the skill would find clues to lead them in to another new mission. I think this could be balanced simply by making sure there was an even distribution of skill-based 'bonus' missions across all of the available skills.

Here are a couple examples of what I mean...

Say you have a Computer skill...
(A) You could login at a computer terminal and find suspicious data transfers going on, encrypted communications going to an abandoned warehouse of some sort.
(B) After the mission is over, you find the laptop / mainframe the villains were using and are able to hack into it to gain more information on their secret plan leading to another mission.

If you have a Streetwise skill...
(A) You could be doing a normal street patrol, beating up street-level villains when you realize one is wearing a new gang-sign you haven't seen before. Following up gang tags and symbols (glowies in the form of graffiti for example) you come to the tenement building they are using as a base.
(B) After the mission is over, you realize that the base is located on top of a city sewer junction. You know smugglers occasionally use the sewers to move contraband into the city, maybe you should go rough up some of those smugglers and find out more...

If you have a Gadgeteer / Technology skill...
(A) One of your gadgets starts picking up some strange interference as you enter a zone, their must be some new strange piece of technology that has gone active nearby! You could track it down by moving about, and playing a sort of game of 'Hot and Cold' until you find the buliding the signal is coming from
(B) After you stop the dastardly evil-doers, you discover that the technological device they were about to activate doesn't actually do anything close to what they thought it would do! Being able to understand what all the parts do, you realize it wasn't a mind control device but actually a bomb, a bomb that could only have been built by the target of your next mission...


This is exactly what I'd like to see.
/signed:)

[UberPhill]

I certainly hope they do! I can see spending points on a base and maybe a vehicle.

I know bases will be added. Not sure if that will be apart of your initial spending points. I would difinitely like to see this kind of stuff though.

UberPhill :)