field surge works again - Page 19

Dench · 09-04-2009, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamisley

Yes, it's a simple fact that keeps getting repeated, and then buried under waves of analysis.

If block takes damage after PFF, then PFF is completely worthless.

It doesn't matter whether they fix field surge or not.

personaly i think FS should be removed / changed. If they fix PFF to be in line with other powers FS will unbalance PFF to a degree that would make it the one stop shop for all passives.

fixing PFF requires that it regens much quicker; when out of combat PFF should regen as quick as your HP when out of combat (maybe a bit slower) . In combat it should regen at some smaller number than that 1/4 or 1/3 or what ever makes it not too uber and at the same time not suck.

FS should be trashed and made into a new power similar to the other click energy forms. Adding break free from holds, DMG or DEF (even maybe both) and an added effect for force skills.

examples :

Thunder click form = +DMG , + equilibrium , energy when hit. and break free
Fire click form = + DMG, + break free, and reduced cost on powers.
Ice Click form = + DMG, + Break free, + chance to chill ppl hitting you. +Cold Snap (increased effectiveness on Ice barrier and Shatter)

there may be more for stuff that goes with Thunder and fire im not 100% familiar with those trees.

If it were up to me i would make the Force Click form in = +DMG , + Break Free, + Knockback Strength and maybe something else im not sure + chance to apply a weak hold (1 STR hold or .75)

Dench · 09-04-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelCra

Well to set it straight the lvl 25's to my 21 are red and the to Master V's and super V i fought were in beta when i was in my 20's as well but i don't remember their level. but when the powers were working PFF FS and Field Droids was a great combo. i could take on almost anything in fact i held off a Mega-Destroid by myself for about 3 mins (at lvl 40) managed to use FS a second time with the field droids healing me but back then two stomps was a death 6000 dmg each stomp lol

All i am saying is that no other Passive has a clicky button that makes that passive better and is unique to that passive (Invun, regen, Auras, Defiance). You could argue that Invun and Unbreakable go together like PFF and FS. But, they dont Unbreakable can be used alone.

Resugance and Regen- again resurgance and be used alone.

auras and defiance have nothing that got together.

the point is that if PFF was as good as the other abilities it would not need FS. and taxing a player to buy a second ability to make their passive semi viable is a joke.

MichaelCra, I ask you this; Imagine you are back in beta you have PFF, BUT FS does not exist in the game. (drones are not part of this picture). Would PFF have been viable pre-tweeking without FS?

anonymousx · 09-04-2009, 09:58 AM

You can use Field Surge without PFF. Not alot to recommend it, but there isn't alot to recommend about PFF either.

Dench · 09-04-2009, 10:21 AM

could you please explain in detail what FS does without PFF?

MichaelCra · 09-04-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dench

All i am saying is that no other Passive has a clicky button that makes that passive better and is unique to that passive (Invun, regen, Auras, Defiance). You could argue that Invun and Unbreakable go together like PFF and FS. But, they dont Unbreakable can be used alone.

Resugance and Regen- again resurgance and be used alone.

auras and defiance have nothing that got together.

the point is that if PFF was as good as the other abilities it would not need FS. and taxing a player to buy a second ability to make their passive semi viable is a joke.

MichaelCra, I ask you this; Imagine you are back in beta you have PFF, BUT FS does not exist in the game. (drones are not part of this picture). Would PFF have been viable pre-tweeking without FS?

sorry i was off reading other threads and i will say yes, it would have been. to be honest i didn't use FS until in the late teens in beta PFF protected me enough i could take on higher levels as long as i was careful. if you remember PFF used to be about as high as your health bar so it about doubled your health bar but know its about 1/2 my health bar so it is indeed worthless, it as i've found out no longer blocks fall dmg either not really important unless knocked outta the air by an attack which dose happen.

Arashikumo · 09-04-2009, 10:43 AM

I don't mind taking both PFF and FS if they worked like they used to... Even at lesser rates... But the fact that I am running primarily a Force character and I don't do as much damage as others even with the proper attributes upped AND now my defences get bugged to the point where someone with one of the other passives can laugh off a group of 3 or more and it sends me running is depressing. I don't even mind the 1min recharge between Field Surge uses but unless something happens I cannot see anyone taking much out of the Force set. Even the hold is not as good as the other ones out there. I team up as much as I can but I would like to solo when the mood strikes me AND I would like to not be baggage when it comes to grouping.

The worst part is that if this doesn't get fixed then I lose all my head start time because it is expensive to go back and rework the character from the ground up. So we get hit in game both by the power set and specing out the buggy powers by losing in game resources or having to roll up another character.

MichaelCra · 09-04-2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arashikumo

I don't mind taking both PFF and FS if they worked like they used to... Even at lesser rates... But the fact that I am running primarily a Force character and I don't do as much damage as others even with the proper attributes upped AND now my defences get bugged to the point where someone with one of the other passives can laugh off a group of 3 or more and it sends me running is depressing. I don't even mind the 1min recharge between Field Surge uses but unless something happens I cannot see anyone taking much out of the Force set. Even the hold is not as good as the other ones out there. I team up as much as I can but I would like to solo when the mood strikes me AND I would like to not be baggage when it comes to grouping.

The worst part is that if this doesn't get fixed then I lose all my head start time because it is expensive to go back and rework the character from the ground up. So we get hit in game both by the power set and specing out the buggy powers by losing in game resources or having to roll up another character.

were in the same boat man... i got to lvl 21 in head start i have gotten no levels since

valdenyan · 09-04-2009, 11:08 AM

field surge is half broken. it recharges your shield fully. but it does not initiate the visual effect ad it does not add the bonus absorption it should.

this was my favorite ability....

Balseraph · 09-04-2009, 11:46 AM

As stated by Akinos, the “field heal” component of Field Surge is inappropriately too small. It will be significantly larger next patch. Don’t worry about that. Also, UI for it is coming.

Now, Personal Force Field – the whats, hows, and whys.

First, let me say: context and nature DOES matter. When we present you with a choice of similar powers (in this case, defenses) it IS important that the power “feel” right and make sense within its own logical and contextual framework. These contextual issues should never trump good game play, of course, but they can inform each other.

A personal force field, as some posters mentioned, exists as a field *outside* of your character’s body. When you are struck, you get to see the shimmering “skin” of energy that the field represents. This field is outside / on top of your armor, etc. Thus, it does not stack with / utilize your armor, blocking, etc.

Obviously, this is a substantial liability. It is not, however, a liability that guarantees the power will be “useless”. If, for example, PFF had 1,000,000 points and recovered 1,000,000 points of strength per second, well, even without interacting with block, it would clearly still be very over powered, wouldn’t it? If it offered 1 point of protection, and it recovered that point once per day, well, it would clearly be under powered.

If we can envision a point where it is over powered, and we can envision a point where it is under powered, then there exists a point where it has the right amount of power to be both fun and in balance.

Now, PFF has many subtleties that may be hard to appreciate, and are not in the power’s description, because if they were, it would be a three page description. But I’m going to explain them a bit to you now.

First, and this is something that everyone should have noticed, the field never stops all of the incoming damage. Five percent of every incoming attack gets through the field, and is not counted against the field’s strength.

Further, the field cannot absorb the total damage of very very large attacks. The field can absorb from any one attack, at most, about 4x the damage of a Mastervillain’s “normal” attack, or a little more than one of their big charge up attacks. Further, the maximum amount of damage that can be absorbed per hit decreases as the field is weakened. In other words, the weaker the field gets, the more damage that bleeds through.

Any damage that bleeds through does not count against the PFF, and is reduced by block and your gear’s defense value, etc

(I’ll leave it for someone else to argue / explain how gently distributing incoming damage amongst multiple pools that can all be healed individually is actually a benefit, not a drawback.)

So, how is this all balanced?

Well, I counter balanced the fact that the PFF doesn’t get the advantage of your other defenses, like from your gear, by simply giving it more hit points.

Here’s some math.
Lets assume that you have 1000 hit points. For you, the benefit of 20% damage reduction is exactly the same as if you had 250 bonus hit points. Demonstration: against someone who does 50 points of damage per attack, reduction guy will live for (1000 / (50 * (1-20%) ) ) = 25 seconds. A character with no damage reduction but 1250 hit points will live for ( 1250 / 50 ) 25 seconds.

Personal Force field is, essentially, bonus hit points, and those points have been calculated under the assumption that they don’t get the benefit of any of your armor. Simple. Now, this DOES mean that certain builds are less useful for a PFF guy. For example, hunting down the gear pieces that give you a great deal of Con, PD, and ED are not very valuable for you. On the other hand, because the PFF character doesn’t have to worry about those stats at all, they have extra freedom to focus their gear choices on the stats that they do care about. Every choice affects every other choice; that’s what makes choices meaningful.

Now, balancing around the block interaction. This one is actually very simple. When your field is fresh, it will completely absorb just about any charge up attack. You’ll still take some bleed damage, but not enough to worry about. In other words, you get to do something that most other people don’t: keep DPSing right through the attack. More DPS to your enemy means they don’t live as long, and do less damage to you over all. However, like I said above: the maximum size of attack that the shield will absorb goes down over time. In other words, it’s a bit riskier to not block a second charge up attack, and you REALLY want to block the third and subsequent ones, because while the field should still be completely absorbing “normal” attacks, charge ups will punch (about) 2/3rds of their strength right through it.

This is what we call “elder level game play”, or “mastery knowledge”. Use it well.

I hope this explanation helps.

Yours,
Balseraph.

brian9824 · 09-04-2009, 11:53 AM

Thats still not entirely correct though. Those big charge up attacks that all those lovely enemies have are absolutely lethal to a force field user while others can block and mitigate most of the damage.

A regen user can simply block the big hits, taking a fraction of the damage while his regen starts to heal him back up. Invuln user simply has the damage reduced, then reduces it again leaving the blow at a fraction of the current damage. A force field user has the blow completely destroy his force field leaving him with no defense whatsoever and having to wait for his shield to regen.

Also once again though I bring up this point. Blocking and all the defense powers provide 0 benefit to a force user outside of 2ndary effects like energy gain. This is ONLY true for force field. Every other defensive set gets the benefit from these skills. Perhaps a compromise should be made. What if while we block our force field regen's faster?

09-04-2009, 11:08 AM	#188
valdenyan Hero Join Date: Dec 2008	field surge is half broken. it recharges your shield fully. but it does not initiate the visual effect ad it does not add the bonus absorption it should. this was my favorite ability.... __________________

09-04-2009, 11:46 AM	#189
Balseraph Cryptic Studios Team Join Date: Nov 2008	Personal Force Field and you: mysteries revealed! As stated by Akinos, the “field heal” component of Field Surge is inappropriately too small. It will be significantly larger next patch. Don’t worry about that. Also, UI for it is coming. Now, Personal Force Field – the whats, hows, and whys. First, let me say: context and nature DOES matter. When we present you with a choice of similar powers (in this case, defenses) it IS important that the power “feel” right and make sense within its own logical and contextual framework. These contextual issues should never trump good game play, of course, but they can inform each other. A personal force field, as some posters mentioned, exists as a field outside of your character’s body. When you are struck, you get to see the shimmering “skin” of energy that the field represents. This field is outside / on top of your armor, etc. Thus, it does not stack with / utilize your armor, blocking, etc. Obviously, this is a substantial liability. It is not, however, a liability that guarantees the power will be “useless”. If, for example, PFF had 1,000,000 points and recovered 1,000,000 points of strength per second, well, even without interacting with block, it would clearly still be very over powered, wouldn’t it? If it offered 1 point of protection, and it recovered that point once per day, well, it would clearly be under powered. If we can envision a point where it is over powered, and we can envision a point where it is under powered, then there exists a point where it has the right amount of power to be both fun and in balance. Now, PFF has many subtleties that may be hard to appreciate, and are not in the power’s description, because if they were, it would be a three page description. But I’m going to explain them a bit to you now. First, and this is something that everyone should have noticed, the field never stops all of the incoming damage. Five percent of every incoming attack gets through the field, and is not counted against the field’s strength. Further, the field cannot absorb the total damage of very very large attacks. The field can absorb from any one attack, at most, about 4x the damage of a Mastervillain’s “normal” attack, or a little more than one of their big charge up attacks. Further, the maximum amount of damage that can be absorbed per hit decreases as the field is weakened. In other words, the weaker the field gets, the more damage that bleeds through. Any damage that bleeds through does not count against the PFF, and is reduced by block and your gear’s defense value, etc (I’ll leave it for someone else to argue / explain how gently distributing incoming damage amongst multiple pools that can all be healed individually is actually a benefit, not a drawback.) So, how is this all balanced? Well, I counter balanced the fact that the PFF doesn’t get the advantage of your other defenses, like from your gear, by simply giving it more hit points. Here’s some math. Lets assume that you have 1000 hit points. For you, the benefit of 20% damage reduction is exactly the same as if you had 250 bonus hit points. Demonstration: against someone who does 50 points of damage per attack, reduction guy will live for (1000 / (50 * (1-20%) ) ) = 25 seconds. A character with no damage reduction but 1250 hit points will live for ( 1250 / 50 ) 25 seconds. Personal Force field is, essentially, bonus hit points, and those points have been calculated under the assumption that they don’t get the benefit of any of your armor. Simple. Now, this DOES mean that certain builds are less useful for a PFF guy. For example, hunting down the gear pieces that give you a great deal of Con, PD, and ED are not very valuable for you. On the other hand, because the PFF character doesn’t have to worry about those stats at all, they have extra freedom to focus their gear choices on the stats that they do care about. Every choice affects every other choice; that’s what makes choices meaningful. Now, balancing around the block interaction. This one is actually very simple. When your field is fresh, it will completely absorb just about any charge up attack. You’ll still take some bleed damage, but not enough to worry about. In other words, you get to do something that most other people don’t: keep DPSing right through the attack. More DPS to your enemy means they don’t live as long, and do less damage to you over all. However, like I said above: the maximum size of attack that the shield will absorb goes down over time. In other words, it’s a bit riskier to not block a second charge up attack, and you REALLY want to block the third and subsequent ones, because while the field should still be completely absorbing “normal” attacks, charge ups will punch (about) 2/3rds of their strength right through it. This is what we call “elder level game play”, or “mastery knowledge”. Use it well. I hope this explanation helps. Yours, Balseraph.

09-04-2009, 09:58 AM	#183
anonymousx Champion Join Date: Mar 2008	You can use Field Surge without PFF. Not alot to recommend it, but there isn't alot to recommend about PFF either.

09-04-2009, 10:21 AM	#184
Dench Citizen Join Date: Jun 2009	could you please explain in detail what FS does without PFF?

09-04-2009, 10:43 AM	#186
Arashikumo Citizen Join Date: Aug 2009	I don't mind taking both PFF and FS if they worked like they used to... Even at lesser rates... But the fact that I am running primarily a Force character and I don't do as much damage as others even with the proper attributes upped AND now my defences get bugged to the point where someone with one of the other passives can laugh off a group of 3 or more and it sends me running is depressing. I don't even mind the 1min recharge between Field Surge uses but unless something happens I cannot see anyone taking much out of the Force set. Even the hold is not as good as the other ones out there. I team up as much as I can but I would like to solo when the mood strikes me AND I would like to not be baggage when it comes to grouping. The worst part is that if this doesn't get fixed then I lose all my head start time because it is expensive to go back and rework the character from the ground up. So we get hit in game both by the power set and specing out the buggy powers by losing in game resources or having to roll up another character.

09-04-2009, 11:53 AM	#190
brian9824 Champion Join Date: Feb 2009	Thats still not entirely correct though. Those big charge up attacks that all those lovely enemies have are absolutely lethal to a force field user while others can block and mitigate most of the damage. A regen user can simply block the big hits, taking a fraction of the damage while his regen starts to heal him back up. Invuln user simply has the damage reduced, then reduces it again leaving the blow at a fraction of the current damage. A force field user has the blow completely destroy his force field leaving him with no defense whatsoever and having to wait for his shield to regen. Also once again though I bring up this point. Blocking and all the defense powers provide 0 benefit to a force user outside of 2ndary effects like energy gain. This is ONLY true for force field. Every other defensive set gets the benefit from these skills. Perhaps a compromise should be made. What if while we block our force field regen's faster?