Recommended Stats are NOT your Friend

white.fox · 08-26-2009, 11:19 AM

Ok, first off I love the game so im not trying to tear it down. This is just more of a warning that at least as far as I have been able to test, the recommended superstats are NOT the way to go for most frameworks.

If you think I am wrong based on your testing, please let me know in a friendly manner as I would actually really be happy if I am since it would add variety to the game, but from my testing these are the results I have seen. Also this is mostly from a PvE perspective.

Note:
Also this is about recommended stats for each framework in general, there are some that I feel are dead on, Electricty, as an example, or perhaps Might, but more often then not one or more of the recommended stats for a given framework is not very usefull to the framework at all.

For a second lets look at the different stats and what they do for you and how useful they are in general. (If I make a comment about a stat being almost useless I mean that in regards to the benefit other stats would provide instead, as pretty much every stat helps in some tiny way.)

Str - A very useful stat for almost everyone. Increased knockback and knockback resistance are handy, the tiny increase to break free from tangible holds isnt much but it adds on with the other benefits of the stat. Strength also increases melee damage regardless of it being a superstat or not though how much that stacks together I dont know. This stat also basically gives you a free power, throwing heavy stuff, which also has the effect of cancelling travel powers such as flight on your target.

Int - Almost useless for most frameworks. Reduces cooldown timers and power cost as well as increases stealth detection. At least for PvE stealth detection seemed pretty pointless. Most powers in the game have no cooldown and those few that do (mostly active buffs) I doubt you will notice the tiny difference (usually a second or two). As for power cost reduction, I think you will find a great deal more benefit to having End or Rec, or even both which makes your power recharge from empty to full in seconds.

Ego - Useless unless you are taking Dex as your other superstat, in which case its pretty good. Ego increases critical damage (not how often you crit). It also helps you break free from intangible holds as opposed to tangible holds that str helps with. Once again in PvE the difference on breaking a hold was barely noticable for me. The reason crit severity is fairly pointless is that you need a VERY high dex to crit very often in Champions. At level 40 with a 40 dex I had a 0% chance to crit. At 130 dex I had around 14% chance. Its possible to have a high dex that is not a super stat but to get it high enough for frequent crits you are mostly likely going to be shorting your super stats which provide a higher damage return overall. With Ego and Dex superstated then you get the big and frequent crits as well as high superstat damage.

Dex - Only semi useful unless you are taking Ego as a superstat. Dex increases your chance to crit as well as your ability to be stealthy. I never played a stealth character so I cant really say how usefull stealth is in champions or how much dex effects it. As a superstat you will have a fairly good crit rate but you are going to need to invest in some ego to make those crits actually have much power behind them. Unlike dex ego actually scales up pretty well so dex would work at least a little without Ego superstated but really not on par with the rewards from other stats without Ego as a superstat as well.

Con - Usefull for most everyone. Con gives you increased hit points which is nice for everyone, especially a tank type character. The hp gain is nice, but I dont know if its as useful as say the increased energy gain and energy cap of End or the energy gain and higher equilibrium of Rec. Its a useful stat though so its a judgement call.

End - End is one of the most useful stats for most frameworks. It provides a larger energy pool which allows for higher energy cost powers to be fully charged or maintained, as well as increasing the rate you generate energy from attacks.

Rec - Rec is also a very useful stat for most frameworks. It provides faster energy regen from attacks and a higher equilibrium which means you start most fights with more energy and you get your natural energy regen for a larger portion of your total energy pool.

Pre - Presence is a tricky one. Agro increase/decrease is great for grouping but since I didnt get to do enough grouping where I knew who had how much Pre it was hard to really tell the impact. I would guess this depends a lot on how much Pre the tank had and if he had advantages like challenging strikes on his powers. Pre does seem to scale well so even small amounts help. Pre also scales some of the healing powers up.

Thats a general run down on usefulness of stats but there is another important thing to consider when picking your superstats. Some powers not only scale damage based on your superstat but also on a specific stat. If your main attacks or defenses run off a particular stat thats an additional reason to consider it as a superstat. This plays out for things such as Presence increasing several of the heal type powers, or endurance increasing all of the ego blade attacks of a Telekinetic.

Now lets look at one framework to show how this applies. I am going to discuss Telekinesis as its the framework I had the most time testing with. The stats recommended by the framework are Con and Ego.

Ego is almost worthless for this framework. Despite the fact most of your attacks deal ego damage, those that do scale based on a stat are almost all off End and not Ego. The crit severity from ego isnt going to do you any good when you will have a nearly or maybe even completely non existant chance to crit. The nimble mind advantage to Ego Surge may be the only reason to cinsider this stat at all.

The one power effected by Ego is the Iconic power of Telekinesis itself. Unfortunately, despite its iconic nature, the power as implemented is a disaster and I would not waste a point on it as it currently stands.

Side note on the TK power (not famework)
TK only lifts an object within 50 feet of you and it is completely imobile, meaning you cant take it with you to throw at that group of enemies you see a short distance away. In order to use it at all the object you want to throw at them needs to be very close to them and with a 100% unobstructed view, the slightest bump in terrain or a railing or corner or such will likely cause it to break before it reaches its target since you cant reposition it for a clear throw. Unlike a str thrown object (which you dont even have to spend a power ponit on) it will not cancel travel powers on its target, at least as far as the duels I tested it in on a friend.

On top of all that its one of the most cumbersome powers to use. You have to target the object, activate the power, select your target, and then activate the power again to throw it. Thats not like crazy hard or anything but in the same time you could have launched multiple other attacks at the enemy. They should have either tethered the object to you so you could carry it to a group you want to throw it at to start the fight, or simply made it an attack that you select and it grabs a nearby object on its own and throws it at your target.

Ok I got off track. Back to the Telekinetic framework superstats. One of the only other powers that scales off a stat in the framework is Ego Form and it works off Con. This passive slotted power is more an offense then a defense, it allows you to always attack with dual Id blades. The defensive portion is physical damage only and not very much but it is a reason to consider Con as one of your superstats.

So, in summary for Telekinesis I would say despite the game recommendations I would get End for sure and the other could be Str, Con, or Rec, all of which provide some nice bonuses.

This discrepency between whats recommended, and whats really useful, is true for most frameworks. I am not going to go into the other frameworks as this post is long enough already for sure just using Telekinesis as an example.

Once again though let me say this is what I saw from testing, I do not claim to know all or fully understand how the mechanics of the game work. I was simply frustrated at how the recommendations and some stats in general seemed to do very little for most characters.

Adventurer · 08-26-2009, 11:34 AM

I actually tried Super Intelligence and I was surprised by how much it lowered power costs..

white.fox · 08-26-2009, 11:38 AM

Adventurer,

Superstating Int does improve them a fair bit but I found both Rec and End to be far more efficient if your worried about energy comsumption.

This goes back to what I was saying that no stat is useless, but in comparison to what other stats provide it might as well be.

Adventurer · 08-26-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by white.fox

Superstating Int does improve them a fair bit but I found both Rec and End to be far more efficient if your worried about energy comsumption.

Super Intelligence makes sense for Power Armor, who can have multiple toggles on at once.

Calsetes · 08-26-2009, 11:39 AM

Ego and Dex work well together with at least one power that I know of - two-gun mojo. Then again, I had the thing on it where you get more energy for a critical hit, and killer instinct (which I think gives a higher chance to critical hit?), and the advantage where the closer you are the more damage you do. Either way, I know when I used two-gun mojo about half my hits on it were criticals at level 10 or so, and ego helped a good bit on that damage.

This was before I really had a plan for my characters, mind you - until then, it was "well, this character is fast and strong, this character is fast and... ego? Yeah, she seems conceited. This other character is smart and energetic, etc.

white.fox · 08-26-2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calsetes

Ego and Dex work well together with at least one power that I know of - two-gun mojo. Then again, I had the thing on it where you get more energy for a critical hit, and killer instinct (which I think gives a higher chance to critical hit?), and the advantage where the closer you are the more damage you do. Either way, I know when I used two-gun mojo about half my hits on it were criticals at level 10 or so, and ego helped a good bit on that damage..

I agree that Ego and Dex work well together. I only say Ego is semi useless as a superstat when you do not have Dex as your other superstat. If you have powers that give you a base chance to crit buff such as Ego Surge with the Nimble Mind advantage then having Ego without the Dex may be reasonable but thats the exception to the rule from what I saw.

Malaclypse523 · 08-26-2009, 11:44 AM

I can't really comment on whether I agree or disagree with the original post, but it's something that I've been suspicious about for quite some time. I can say that there are quite a few powers with cooldowns in the Supernatural set, but their effectiveness doesn't really justify taking them and also investing in int to reduce those cooldowns. (Pro-tip: Get the meteor strike advantage for the Lash power - it turns supernatural into a very effective lockdown power set, especially if you also take condemn.)

But anyway, thanks very much for the write-up - I think it will be very useful information for a lot of people who haven't really thought a lot about the stats, and I commend you for taking the time to put it all down in words.

Nashiq · 08-26-2009, 11:44 AM

nice post, but in the end it comes down to one thing- personal preference. Not everyone wants to min/max their stats, they just want to have fun and try different things out.

Still though, this is good for those people that -do- want to min/max

Adventurer · 08-26-2009, 11:46 AM

EGO would be a much better stat on its own if we started with like, a 10% crit chance instead of something bordering on 0%.

Maybe DEX and EGO should mirror each other's function, except one does more than the other? Dex would give both crit chance and crit severity, but gives more crit chance than the other. And vice versa.

white.fox · 08-26-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adventurer

EGO would be a much better stat on its own if we started with like, a 10% crit chance instead of something bordering on 0%.

Maybe DEX and EGO should mirror each other's function, except one does more than the other? Dex would give both crit chance and crit severity, but gives more crit chance than the other. And vice versa.

I totally agree with you Adventurer. A base 5 to 10% crit would make a world of difference. I was pretty unhappy when i saw I was at 0% crit with a 40 Dex at level 40. Not that I had spent that many points or anything but even having a Dex of 1 you should have a base chance in my opinion.

08-26-2009, 11:19 AM	#1
white.fox Citizen Join Date: Aug 2009	Recommended Stats are NOT your Friend Ok, first off I love the game so im not trying to tear it down. This is just more of a warning that at least as far as I have been able to test, the recommended superstats are NOT the way to go for most frameworks. If you think I am wrong based on your testing, please let me know in a friendly manner as I would actually really be happy if I am since it would add variety to the game, but from my testing these are the results I have seen. Also this is mostly from a PvE perspective. Note: Also this is about recommended stats for each framework in general, there are some that I feel are dead on, Electricty, as an example, or perhaps Might, but more often then not one or more of the recommended stats for a given framework is not very usefull to the framework at all. For a second lets look at the different stats and what they do for you and how useful they are in general. (If I make a comment about a stat being almost useless I mean that in regards to the benefit other stats would provide instead, as pretty much every stat helps in some tiny way.) Str - A very useful stat for almost everyone. Increased knockback and knockback resistance are handy, the tiny increase to break free from tangible holds isnt much but it adds on with the other benefits of the stat. Strength also increases melee damage regardless of it being a superstat or not though how much that stacks together I dont know. This stat also basically gives you a free power, throwing heavy stuff, which also has the effect of cancelling travel powers such as flight on your target. Int - Almost useless for most frameworks. Reduces cooldown timers and power cost as well as increases stealth detection. At least for PvE stealth detection seemed pretty pointless. Most powers in the game have no cooldown and those few that do (mostly active buffs) I doubt you will notice the tiny difference (usually a second or two). As for power cost reduction, I think you will find a great deal more benefit to having End or Rec, or even both which makes your power recharge from empty to full in seconds. Ego - Useless unless you are taking Dex as your other superstat, in which case its pretty good. Ego increases critical damage (not how often you crit). It also helps you break free from intangible holds as opposed to tangible holds that str helps with. Once again in PvE the difference on breaking a hold was barely noticable for me. The reason crit severity is fairly pointless is that you need a VERY high dex to crit very often in Champions. At level 40 with a 40 dex I had a 0% chance to crit. At 130 dex I had around 14% chance. Its possible to have a high dex that is not a super stat but to get it high enough for frequent crits you are mostly likely going to be shorting your super stats which provide a higher damage return overall. With Ego and Dex superstated then you get the big and frequent crits as well as high superstat damage. Dex - Only semi useful unless you are taking Ego as a superstat. Dex increases your chance to crit as well as your ability to be stealthy. I never played a stealth character so I cant really say how usefull stealth is in champions or how much dex effects it. As a superstat you will have a fairly good crit rate but you are going to need to invest in some ego to make those crits actually have much power behind them. Unlike dex ego actually scales up pretty well so dex would work at least a little without Ego superstated but really not on par with the rewards from other stats without Ego as a superstat as well. Con - Usefull for most everyone. Con gives you increased hit points which is nice for everyone, especially a tank type character. The hp gain is nice, but I dont know if its as useful as say the increased energy gain and energy cap of End or the energy gain and higher equilibrium of Rec. Its a useful stat though so its a judgement call. End - End is one of the most useful stats for most frameworks. It provides a larger energy pool which allows for higher energy cost powers to be fully charged or maintained, as well as increasing the rate you generate energy from attacks. Rec - Rec is also a very useful stat for most frameworks. It provides faster energy regen from attacks and a higher equilibrium which means you start most fights with more energy and you get your natural energy regen for a larger portion of your total energy pool. Pre - Presence is a tricky one. Agro increase/decrease is great for grouping but since I didnt get to do enough grouping where I knew who had how much Pre it was hard to really tell the impact. I would guess this depends a lot on how much Pre the tank had and if he had advantages like challenging strikes on his powers. Pre does seem to scale well so even small amounts help. Pre also scales some of the healing powers up. Thats a general run down on usefulness of stats but there is another important thing to consider when picking your superstats. Some powers not only scale damage based on your superstat but also on a specific stat. If your main attacks or defenses run off a particular stat thats an additional reason to consider it as a superstat. This plays out for things such as Presence increasing several of the heal type powers, or endurance increasing all of the ego blade attacks of a Telekinetic. Now lets look at one framework to show how this applies. I am going to discuss Telekinesis as its the framework I had the most time testing with. The stats recommended by the framework are Con and Ego. Ego is almost worthless for this framework. Despite the fact most of your attacks deal ego damage, those that do scale based on a stat are almost all off End and not Ego. The crit severity from ego isnt going to do you any good when you will have a nearly or maybe even completely non existant chance to crit. The nimble mind advantage to Ego Surge may be the only reason to cinsider this stat at all. The one power effected by Ego is the Iconic power of Telekinesis itself. Unfortunately, despite its iconic nature, the power as implemented is a disaster and I would not waste a point on it as it currently stands. Side note on the TK power (not famework) TK only lifts an object within 50 feet of you and it is completely imobile, meaning you cant take it with you to throw at that group of enemies you see a short distance away. In order to use it at all the object you want to throw at them needs to be very close to them and with a 100% unobstructed view, the slightest bump in terrain or a railing or corner or such will likely cause it to break before it reaches its target since you cant reposition it for a clear throw. Unlike a str thrown object (which you dont even have to spend a power ponit on) it will not cancel travel powers on its target, at least as far as the duels I tested it in on a friend. On top of all that its one of the most cumbersome powers to use. You have to target the object, activate the power, select your target, and then activate the power again to throw it. Thats not like crazy hard or anything but in the same time you could have launched multiple other attacks at the enemy. They should have either tethered the object to you so you could carry it to a group you want to throw it at to start the fight, or simply made it an attack that you select and it grabs a nearby object on its own and throws it at your target. Ok I got off track. Back to the Telekinetic framework superstats. One of the only other powers that scales off a stat in the framework is Ego Form and it works off Con. This passive slotted power is more an offense then a defense, it allows you to always attack with dual Id blades. The defensive portion is physical damage only and not very much but it is a reason to consider Con as one of your superstats. So, in summary for Telekinesis I would say despite the game recommendations I would get End for sure and the other could be Str, Con, or Rec, all of which provide some nice bonuses. This discrepency between whats recommended, and whats really useful, is true for most frameworks. I am not going to go into the other frameworks as this post is long enough already for sure just using Telekinesis as an example. Once again though let me say this is what I saw from testing, I do not claim to know all or fully understand how the mechanics of the game work. I was simply frustrated at how the recommendations and some stats in general seemed to do very little for most characters. Last edited by white.fox : 08-26-2009 at 01:43 PM.

08-26-2009, 11:39 AM	#5
Calsetes Vanguard Join Date: Oct 2008	Ego and Dex work well together with at least one power that I know of - two-gun mojo. Then again, I had the thing on it where you get more energy for a critical hit, and killer instinct (which I think gives a higher chance to critical hit?), and the advantage where the closer you are the more damage you do. Either way, I know when I used two-gun mojo about half my hits on it were criticals at level 10 or so, and ego helped a good bit on that damage. This was before I really had a plan for my characters, mind you - until then, it was "well, this character is fast and strong, this character is fast and... ego? Yeah, she seems conceited. This other character is smart and energetic, etc. __________________ My Characters: Calsetes \| Nuku Nuku \| Eimi \| Narau \| XPR-8571 \| The Auditor \| DeathShrike \| Virus_Buster.exe \| White Jaguar \| Monochrome C.A.T. \| Fisticuffs O'Flannigan \| The Fuji Fury \| Heartstopper \| Jasper Thumpworth \| Artificial Angel \| The Siren \| The Cursed One \| The Clockwork Knight \| Rotting Rayne \| The Cheninator \| Stonegard \| Dead Poo \| The Man From The Room \| Screwloose \| Tankbot

08-26-2009, 11:34 AM	#2
Adventurer Champion Join Date: Aug 2009	I actually tried Super Intelligence and I was surprised by how much it lowered power costs..

08-26-2009, 11:38 AM	#3
white.fox Citizen Join Date: Aug 2009	Adventurer, Superstating Int does improve them a fair bit but I found both Rec and End to be far more efficient if your worried about energy comsumption. This goes back to what I was saying that no stat is useless, but in comparison to what other stats provide it might as well be.

08-26-2009, 11:44 AM	#7
Malaclypse523 Citizen Join Date: Jan 2009	I can't really comment on whether I agree or disagree with the original post, but it's something that I've been suspicious about for quite some time. I can say that there are quite a few powers with cooldowns in the Supernatural set, but their effectiveness doesn't really justify taking them and also investing in int to reduce those cooldowns. (Pro-tip: Get the meteor strike advantage for the Lash power - it turns supernatural into a very effective lockdown power set, especially if you also take condemn.) But anyway, thanks very much for the write-up - I think it will be very useful information for a lot of people who haven't really thought a lot about the stats, and I commend you for taking the time to put it all down in words.

08-26-2009, 11:46 AM	#9
Adventurer Champion Join Date: Aug 2009	EGO would be a much better stat on its own if we started with like, a 10% crit chance instead of something bordering on 0%. Maybe DEX and EGO should mirror each other's function, except one does more than the other? Dex would give both crit chance and crit severity, but gives more crit chance than the other. And vice versa.